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Case ([personal profile] case) wrote in [community profile] fandomsecrets2017-05-15 07:32 pm

[ SECRET POST #3785 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3785 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.



02. [repeat]


[Grey's Anatomy]




[Matthew Daddario]


[Sleepy Hollow]


[Doctor Who]


Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 32 secrets from Secret Submission Post #542.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

[personal profile] fscom 2017-05-15 11:33 pm (UTC)(link)
[Grey's Anatomy]

(Anonymous) 2017-05-15 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
It is a, pardon the pun, grey area. There are levels of intoxication, and not all levels of intoxication meet the threshold of severe enough impairment as to invalidate consent. Also there is a difference between a flirtatious no and a hard no. These are not cut and dried issues.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:02 am (UTC)(link)
Well, who gets to decide that?

(That's the whole confirmed consent thing, you know. If your judgement is impaired, then the "No means no" rule is still a better guideline.)

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:10 am (UTC)(link)

Plus, IIRC he doesn't even try to convince her/seduce her/whatever in that scene; it's entirely her choice. Doesn't he just show up at the party and see her out front of the house, and then she's the one who walks up to him and kisses him and says "Take me for a ride, Derek"?

I would call it the very mildest of ducbon at most.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
This. I've had tipsy sex before and it was 100% consensual. Would I have done it if I hadn't been drinking? Probably not, but I don't regret it. It was fun in the moment and that was all that really mattered.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
Fully agree with this, as someone who's both had "tipsy" consensual sex, and someone whose ex deliberately got me blackout drunk so he could fuck me while I was unconscious. It's a grey area, but one I wish more men had a better understanding of.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
In real life, yeah, but in fiction it's a fairly gross trope that women start out saying no and need to be 'helped' into a yes by plot devices.

Why is wearing a woman's resolve down considered romantic?

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:50 am (UTC)(link)
Because sometimes it is nice to be chased instead of chaste. It makes me feel pretty and desirable.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:54 am (UTC)(link)
I am sure there are prisons just full of men who are exactly the right type to make you feel as pretty as you want.

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(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 04:33 am (UTC)(link)
DA--if you want to keep "no" for flirting with, can there be some kind of universally understood symbol that means "I'm not interested right now, please leave me alone?" that's less extreme than a suit of armor with spikes that spray mace when someone says "hey baby!"? Because someone telling me I'm pretty or that they find me desirable can be nice sometimes, but someone ignoring a "no" or a "no thanks" just makes me feel like they don't give a shit what I want or for my consent or safety.

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(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 02:41 pm (UTC)(link)

(Anonymous) 2017-05-15 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
There's a few things at play here.

1) You're right, men crossing lines like that is normalized and not seen as a negative, creepy thing.

2) Culture is also sort of invested in the idea that "loosening up" via alcohol is a positive thing, particularly if the character is usually more of a type A personality. This is true even if it doesn't lead to sex so it's easy to underestimate how pervasive this attitude is.

I don't agree with either one and find it a little tiresome, but there you go.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:08 am (UTC)(link)
Was this one of those "he was chasing her, she pretended to twist her ankle so she could get caught' scenarios? Because that one is a classic for a reason.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:35 am (UTC)(link)

This "play hard to get" cultural trope needs to seriously die. Whether deliberately or not, encouraging "women give mixed messages" as a guide to men interacting with them is a really bad way to go about things.

There's a reason why "active consent" is A Thing. I saw a writeup somewhere which summarized it really well: at the beginning of a relationship consent is more overt and verbal, while as it evolves it becomes more subtly nonverbal. But it's *always there* and always obtained without duress or impairment, and that's what's crucial.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
Bring out the consent forms and the notary public then, bu all means.

And they said the Victorians were puritanical.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
If you equate verbal consent with notary forms.... I feel so sorry for you.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:57 am (UTC)(link)

I... literally wrote "verbal"????? Your reading comprehension is a bit off.

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(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 04:13 am (UTC)(link)
I don't agree with your secret. I don't think the scene gives us reason to question Meredith's ability to consent. And it bothers me when people are too black-and-white on the whole drinking/consent issue, because I think it's detrimental to the ongoing and very important consent/rape culture conversation. People become understandably annoyed when you tell them that the multiple instances of thoroughly consensual sex they've had while mildly drunk were actually rape, or simply were Not Okay.

That said, I actually do agree with what you're saying in this comment. I find the whole "playing hard to get" trope annoying most of the time, and while I don't feel that it's inherently problematic, the tremendous prevalence of it is.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
People become understandably annoyed when you tell them that the multiple instances of thoroughly consensual sex they've had while mildly drunk were actually rape, or simply were Not Okay.

Ugh, yes. So many people seem incapable of comprehending that there is an enormous spectrum between "had a beer or two & are now slightly buzzed" and "are so wasted that you aren't going to remember this in the morning." The latter is not cool, but you can be the former and be entirely capable of giving informed consent.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 09:48 am (UTC)(link)
But women do often give mixed message. As do men, for the record. It's a fact of life, not just a fictional trope.

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(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
It's gross, I agree. Gross, pervasive, and irresponsible.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
At least it's portrayed as crossing a line when a man does it. A woman does it and the narrative almost always plays it as a joke.

But why are people considered responsible and able to make their own decisions while drunk at some times and not at others? If you have sex while drunk, somehow you were raped, but if you drive while drunk, that's your own fault? Which is it? Are you incapable or aren't you?

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 01:00 am (UTC)(link)
Passive versus active. One is being done to you, the other is you doing something. Especially if, knowing you're impaired, you choose to act in a way that invites harm to others, that's still an actionable offence even if mitigating factors are accepted at trial.

(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 01:05 am (UTC)(link)

Unless you're blackout drunk or severely impaired, choosing to have sex is just as much an active decision as choosing to drive a car is.

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(Anonymous) 2017-05-16 09:52 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know the show or scene so correct me if I'm wrong but somehow, he doesn't exactly look sober himself?