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Case ([personal profile] case) wrote in [community profile] fandomsecrets2017-07-14 06:43 pm

[ SECRET POST #3845 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3845 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.







[linked on OP's request; (illustrated) depictions of violence and torture]






[dance, So You Think You Can Dance, Dancing with the Stars, World of Dance]








[Chicago Fire]






















Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #550.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

[personal profile] fscom 2017-07-14 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
[linked on OP's request; (illustrated) depictions of violence and torture]

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I think stuff like this isn't the war so much as all the Norse/Celtic/etc. poems and such he was an expert in. They had a lot of imagery like that.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:01 am (UTC)(link)
There were constant rumors about what some of the more fanatical Prussian regiments got up to in WW1 in the back of some of the more horrible smaller battles. The horrible thing is that Tolkien wasn't the only one taking notes, what was propaganda and rumor in WW1 was taken up by the SS in WW2 for bit of real world re-enaction.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:03 am (UTC)(link)
Were there rumors specifically about the thing we're talking about here?

I know about the German Corpse Factory stuff and I can see that playing into some of the Mordor stuff maybe, but I'm not aware of any rumors or tropes about this specifically.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:11 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, but if you read any of the poems Tolkien was an expert in (like Beowulf), you can clearly see him drawing from them for a lot of this kind of stuff. If you read his letters and listen to his interviews and stuff, this is clearly what's on his mind when he discusses a lot of the choices he makes for Middle-earth.

I do see his WW1 experience in places like the Dead Marshes and the way he wrote battles and soldiers. But it's a subtle empathy he offers. I wouldn't connect the tortures he portrays as being something coming from his WW1 days. It's just too reminiscent of what you find in the old literature that he was an expert in.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:15 am (UTC)(link)
I mostly agree with this, but I think "subtle empathy" is just an understatement. It's pervasive in certain parts (especially stuff connected with Mordor, the Ring, and Frodo's Journey - not just the Dead Marshes). Like, tropes and descriptions and characterization and things are all very directly drawn from those experiences.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
But the Ring was taken straight from Siegfried. He didn't come up with that on his own. I can agree that Frodo coming home at the end and not being able to be healed is something Tolkien took from real world experience but I don't think that has anything to do with extraordinary horrors of war - not like it's presented in this secret.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:25 am (UTC)(link)
I agree it's not anything to do with what was present in this secret.

I think the fact that the Ring was taken from Siegfried doesn't preclude Tolkien using it in a way that draws on WWI and WWI experiences and tropes. It can be more than one thing at the same time. for me, the fact that it's more than one thing at the same time is part of what makes LOTR so good.

And it's not just the ring but the settings and experiences around the whole ring journey. Just a lot of things drawing on those ideas.

anyway this is a minor disagreement with your very reasonable and sane ideas, i want to be clear about that

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:29 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I definitely agree that his WW1 experiences are there. When I say subtle empathy, I mean his war experience isn't in the flashy image of a body on a pole or Gelmir getting chopped to pieces (those to me are from literature) but in the empathy he shows in Frodo's storyline. You only get that kind of understanding when all your friends die (as Tolkien's did).

So, I think we're overall in agreement.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I mean, he might have just studied history? Can we not make Tolkien into some sort of traumatized woobie who can only deal with his past by turning it into fantasy novels?

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Nobody has suggested that, least of all OP.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:42 pm (UTC)(link)
And I feel like OP implied it. *Gasp* Two people who disagree! Let's fight about it!

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Suggesting that a writer's real life experiences might have influenced their writing* isn't the same thing as suggesting that Tolkien is a "traumatized woobie who can only deal with his past by turning it into fantasy novels". Like, there's no implication except in the weird baggage you brought to this conversation, and nothing to fight about unless you're a troll, so... /shrug

* Which is totally a thing that happens, BTW.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry you apparently either lack the empathy or understanding of human emotion to the degree that you can't read between the lines about wondering what horrors a person saw to write the things they write.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:05 am (UTC)(link)

I don't think anyone ITT is advancing the idea that Tolkien's experience is unrelated to his writing

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:09 am (UTC)(link)
nayrt - Correct. Because most of us can figure out that traumatic experiences influencing one's writing isn't the same thing as being a "traumatized woobie", and some of us can even figure out that it's beside the point, because the secret says absolutely nothing about woobie!Tolkien.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:18 am (UTC)(link)
Or you just need to put on your critical thinking cap

If I'm talking to someone about the horrors my neighbor saw at war, the underlying sentiment is that I feel bad for him because of all the horrible things he saw. And in a fannish space, it's not only not out of the question it's downright common for people to take that "I feel bad for them sentiment" and turn it into woobiefying. That's what reading between the lines is.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:23 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say. Like, is this your explanation of why you think OP was woobifying Tolkien? That's kind of what it reads like but I really honestly can't tell.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:28 am (UTC)(link)
I think I see where part of the problem is. You see my original comment as "This secret woobifies Tolkien!" whereas I meant it as not wanting to start down the path of woobifying Tolkien. Possibly if not probably my fault.

As for the comment yrt most recently...I really don't know what to tell you.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:23 am (UTC)(link)
My critical thinking has led me to a different conclusion than yours has. My critical thinking cap also doesn't lead me to pull things out of "but fandom saaaaays" when the actual secret we're discussing indicates nothing of the sort. You're trying really, really hard to make this into something it's not, and I have no idea why, but I don't think anyone's buying it.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 12:08 am (UTC)(link)
Don't worry. What you're referring to isn't a lack of empathy or understanding of human emotion, it's called "jumping to conclusions based on little to no evidence". I'm not sure why you have such a hateboner for OP's secret, but eh, I guess everyone needs a hobby.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Lol wut. Where in the secret did OP say this?

I feel like people like you deliberately misunderstand secrets just so you can start petty arguments jfc.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
This. I'm genuinely not sure if they're being deliberately obtuse just to stir the pot, or if their reading comprehension is really that bad.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-14 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I am really not aware of any bodies tied to banners as poles occurring in World War I. Also there are much more obvious places you could get that idea from, if you were - for instance - a devout Catholic or something like that.

I strongly agree with the idea that a lot of LOTR is drawn from WWI experience but I'm extremely doubtful that he would have drawn on his own experience for this specific thing.