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Case ([personal profile] case) wrote in [community profile] fandomsecrets2017-07-15 03:52 pm

[ SECRET POST #3846 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3846 ⌋

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
TBH I don't even understand the basic line of reasoning in the first place. How fucking many stories are actually, genuinely creative and novel in a good way? It's very rare. Mostly we get variations on the same stories, told with varying degrees of skill. Fuck off if you're going to tell me that Age of Ultron was deeply "new and interesting", you know?

I personally really like well-made movies that make use of familiar plot structures and situations and tropes. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and to be honest anyone who suggested that there was would make me kind of angry. Like, who would really be out there saying that there would be something wrong about wanting another good Indiana Jones movie? It's a completely absurd idea.

Doing gender-swapped version of movies would be justifiable even if it were only a way to get more well-made versions of those tropes. And of course it offers more potential than that. The idea that genderswaps are bad because they don't really result in anything new and interesting is an absurd, nonsensical, harmful, idiotic bar to set up for them to clear, and it's honestly making me kind of angry IRL thinking about the idea.

I'm all grumpy now dang it. And usually thinking about gender-swapped stories makes me really happy.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)
EXACTLY. I see the same complaint come up when it comes to diversity in media where people say oh nooooo, you can't do that because it's not creative enough. Really? The sad part is, I don't think most of the people who say these things even realize the double standard.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry, I don't like gender swaps and your two examples are especially terrible.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)
are they uninteresting to you personally as a matter of taste, or are they intrinsically bad

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[personal profile] ninety6tears - 2017-07-15 21:08 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I hope nobody is this quick to tear down the things you like and go out of their way to tell you how bad they are, because that sounds like a real drag.

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think gender swaps are intrinsically boring. Simply by swapping gender, it indirectly impacts a whole lot of things, especially w/r/t historical fiction or fiction not set in modern day.

On the other hand, I think gender swaps are one of the easiest tropes to make boring or to make a political statement instead of a story. Because "gender swap AU" is a character trope that leaves the exact same plot as before with little change, and what changes the author makes will tend to reference the difference that gender makes, whereas for example, "high school AU" is a setting trope that comes with a plot of its own e.g. 4 years of school and school events.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Same anon, cont.

This is why I prefer totally new characters, versus hypothetically, "black Superman."

If you change the race or gender of a character, then it should mean something since those are significant traits. But there's no neat way to make it mean something except by having it be a major factor in changing the backstory or plot, and then you run into all the questions like, are you saying that due to the race changing, s/he couldn't have had the same one as before? Could black Superman not have been adopted grown up on a farm? If not, then why does this character have to be "black Superman" and not "a black guy who is superpowered" if you're going to change the plot?

On the other hand, if you swap them and nothing changes, that also doesn't make sense and raises the question of why did you bother to swap them?

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I love the idea and playing around with it, but at the same time I sort of feel like you run the risk of uncanny valley. Something that's too close to the original gets people's hackles up.

Like best example I can think of, Disney's Hercules came out and all everyone could talk about was what it "got wrong", O Brother Where Art Thou came out and all everyone could talk about was "finding the easter eggs" where it was an Odyssey adaption.

I do think, especially when dealing with fantasy-based fiction, there's really no need to haul out the tired old gender and sexuality tropes unchanged and sometimes it's really nice to have a fantasy where women aren't background tropes other than maybe a few exceptional rule breaking warrior women or spunky princess. There's two main sorts of fantasies, revenge-ish fantasies where you address the negative reality and flip it off all "I am no man!" style, and wishful fantasies where the negative reality doesn't exist.

Man, and even the worst is the smug "Are you just saying I can't slay the dragon because I'm a woman?!" "No, I am an enlightened feminist, you can't slay the dragon because you're armed with a breadstick, you silly SJW"

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
The people who criticized Disney's Hercules for "getting it wrong" make me laugh because Hercules is fucking mythology, and even on top of that greek myths have a crapton of variations so it's not like there is one consistent canon to go from (I would argue Hunchback was a worse movie because there is one canon to go from.) Hell before Disney even touched Hercules there were already a ton of tv and movies that strayed far from the original canon.

Like I am not one to usually care to defend Disney but it just felt like a ridiculous argument.

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 09:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Come up with a new character. Riff off an established character, if you must. Give them a new name. Make the world a more diverse place.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
porque no los dos

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ninety6tears: lucrezia side profile (borgias)

[personal profile] ninety6tears 2017-07-15 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure whether we're discussing this as a professional or fanfic trope. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of professionally written characters start from using gender-bending of existing characters as a starting point. Hell, I have an OC that started with my realizing I couldn't think of a female character who's much like Ian Malcolm. Deciding when to account for the differences in their experience and how it might affect their personality is what makes it interesting, and I like to think there aren't right or wrong answers. But the one rule 63 fic I've written involved motorsports in the 70's and I worried I'd get backlash (not that the fic was ever going to be that popular) for actually making one of the characters be more held back in her career, but I felt like it would have almost been disrespectful to the actual women who didn't get enough support to achieve more in that scene, like, on top of the fact that I'm telling a story about genderflipped guys rather than actual women.

And then there's using it to tailor your porn, which I have no issue with either.
Edited 2017-07-15 21:12 (UTC)

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 09:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I want Captain America in a leather miniskirt, metal bra and with long wavy hair.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-16 12:13 am (UTC)(link)
Can't stop thinking of a mtf!Chris Evans, now. Yes please.

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah sometimes I think the arguments against genderswap are really weak, like there were people who were seriously trying to say Ghostbusters had to be an all male cast because women can't fight ghosts.<.i> GHOSTS. Let me say that again- GHOSTS.

Like if you're arguing something that ridiculous just admit you're sexist and be done with it.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
SA, oops sorry for the botched html.
ninety6tears: nyota - yellow profile (trek: uhura)

[personal profile] ninety6tears 2017-07-15 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)
TBF men have more experience fighting the trauma of disproportionate rejection they receive, life-threatening misandrists on the prowl every night, and other phantom threats.

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 10:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Those two examples you gave just sound boring to me. If the overall plot itself is going to be exactly the same, then what's the point of the genderswap in the first place? I want to read genderswaps where the swap actually affects the plot in a significant way and turns it into a new, different story. I don't want just another rehash of the same old story with a few minor differences.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)
You do realize that 1960 The Magnificent Seven was based off Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, right? Funny how nobody decided to not make Magnificent Seven just because it was the same plot, only with white guys in a western.

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original anon

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(Anonymous) 2017-07-15 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I would watch all those things in a hot minute.
tabaqui: (Default)

[personal profile] tabaqui 2017-07-15 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm more interested in genderswapped stories (like Ghostbusters or the soon-to-come-out Oceans # whatever) than i am with genderswapped fic.

*Mostly* because i'm in it for the slash (meaning, i like to read m/m porn, i like to have two leads that 'Hollywood' or 'the media' have deemed hyper-masculine and TOTALLY STRAIGHT YOU GUYZ) be silly, cuddly, sexy, and emotionally mature). F/F is fine, but it doesn't interest me or trip my trigger.

And i utterly despise fic that preaches to me or wants to be make sure i understand 'the struggle' - I don't read m/m stories that focus on how hard it is to be gay, and i don't want to read a genderswapped Magnificent Seven and slog through pages of misogyny and rants about how women can 'do anything men can do'. Yes, they can, mostly, and no, i'm not interested in your lecture.

Fic is my happy, relaxing, fun-time place, and sadly, way too many genderswap fics, trans headcanon fics, and etc., just go too preachy, too politically correct and/or way too angsty for me.
junee: (Default)

[personal profile] junee 2017-07-16 12:30 am (UTC)(link)
I have nothing to say other than good image choice for your secret!

(Anonymous) 2017-07-16 12:43 am (UTC)(link)
I would absolutely watch a gender swapped Magnificent 7.

It can be, just like anything else can be.

(Anonymous) 2017-07-16 04:07 am (UTC)(link)
But it isn't inherent in the trope. A trope can be badly done and when that's done a lot people tend to blame it on the trope rather than the writers of that trope. It's not really fair, but those are the associations that get made.

I don't generally go for genderswap in fic because I'm usually there for the specific characters I like and want more of, but if the plot is interesting enough, I might give it a try.

Movies genderswaps are of more interest to me. I think flipping the genders can make for an interesting new take, but fans have to be ready to let go of the old and sometimes they're really not. Think about how much push back there is when they change Doctor Who or Bond and they've always been white guys replacing white guys (Jesus, so much discussion over Daniel Craig and he was replacing a guy who had done Bond movies a lot people didn't even like and some of it was seriously about the fact that Craig was blond).

Honestly, the Ocean's Eight idea really appeals to me, rather than replace characters, extend the franchise. I kind of wish they'd done that for Ghostbusters.

Re: It can be, just like anything else can be.

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