case: (Default)
Case ([personal profile] case) wrote in [community profile] fandomsecrets2017-09-06 06:40 pm

[ SECRET POST #3899 ]


⌈ Secret Post #3899 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 14 secrets from Secret Submission Post #557.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-06 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)
haha, well, you might have a bit of a point. Though there's only so much you can do with regular humans to get visual variety.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 12:02 am (UTC)(link)
Those characters are all made from the same mold though. Where's the fat dude, where's the short and the tall dude, where's the old guy, where's the handicapped, I could go on...

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 12:11 am (UTC)(link)
...you see the bearded ginger with the big belly? That's the fat dude. Right there. Not sure how you missed him.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 12:44 am (UTC)(link)
Because he wasn't fat enough.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-06 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Can't unsee it.
nightscale: Starbolt (Overwatch: Pharah)

[personal profile] nightscale 2017-09-06 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh man, I can't unsee it now.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 12:08 am (UTC)(link)
Reaper, Hanzo, Genji, Soldier 76, Lucio, Winston, and Reinhardt. I bet there is some fanmade thing with them.
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 12:59 am (UTC)(link)
To go down the list:

1. Robert: Actually has a face, assuming the additional-media reveal (which would have come after Dream Daddy was in production), different face, different beard, and a biker jacket is neither body armor nor trenchcoat and has a radically different set of meanings, which you know, kinda matters for gay/bi people into that sort of thing.

2. Damien: No beard, different ethnicity, different hair, different subculture, which, you know, kinda matters for gay/bi goths.

3. Craig: Has a face. Are we really at the point where characters look alike just on the basis of vague ethnicity? Is Craig even of Japanese ancestry? Also, not a ninja, which, you know, kinda matters for gay/bi men into fitness culture.

4. Joseph: I'll give that largely because "young Soldier 76" is such a stupid character design. Still though, how do you go from "professional soldier" to "smug, preppy stepford husband who washed out of the coast guard or navy." Those cultural signifiers kinda matter...

5. Mat: Yes, because all people with dreds look alike, even when they're styled completely differently. Oh, and Mat's tattoo sleeve extends past his wrist and is a paisley/floral design unlike Lucio's tribal ink. And again, Mat's middle-aged hipster signifiers kinda matter...

6. Hugo: Not. A. Gorilla. And, you know those academic signifiers kinda matter...

7. Brian: Wrong beard. Wrong beard color. Wrong type of bear. A difference which, you know, kinda matters if you're a bear or bear hunter (broadly defined).

That's not to say that Dream Daddy isn't derivative in its typecasting, but I think the connections between it and Blizzard's superhero narrative are pretty thin.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
so can you clarify: are you not going with the vague "they sorta-kinda map vaguely to Overwatch dudes" or are you zoomed in on the details? Or are you giving some critique of DD?
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 02:28 am (UTC)(link)
It's kind of annoying how far people here stretch to avoid the obvious interpretation that the Dads are stereotypes of urban gay subcultures (rough, goth, bro, conservative, hipster, geek, and bear) with a multi-ethnic twist. The alternative interpretation is to shoehorn Dream Daddy into Overwatch or yaoi, which have completely different stereotypes going on. For a space that's supposedly into awareness of tropes, there's a lot of missing the obvious going on.

EDIT: I agree with another poster that it's an awful lot of "people with the same skin tone look alike." It's the only thing that Hugo and McCree have in common in terms of design.
Edited (verb verb, I need a verb) 2017-09-07 02:46 (UTC)

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 05:25 am (UTC)(link)
No one compared McCree to anyone?
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 12:28 pm (UTC)(link)
It's in fanart previously linked in the thread.
Edited 2017-09-07 12:29 (UTC)

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 01:19 am (UTC)(link)
I assume you've seen throwaway15963's manip of the dads?

https://throwaway15963.tumblr.com/post/161984116108

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 02:15 am (UTC)(link)
I feel really uncomfortable with this comparison because I honestly don't see it and it feels very "X ethnicity looks alike."

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 10:10 am (UTC)(link)
It's not simply the ethnicities, it's also the hairstyles and the personality tropes that are used. And just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there. Personally, I do see it and I'm very sure it was a 100% conscious decision by the character designers.
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 12:40 pm (UTC)(link)
... it's also the hairstyles ...

Lock hairstyles are not interchangeable. It's kinda like saying that Thor and Cap are the same character because they both have white-guy hair. (And half the claims to resemblance are based on limited-availability skins and models or secondary art that don't represent the primary character concept.)

Never mind that DD's personality tropes represent gay urban subcultures while Overwatch's are from superhero fiction.

Personally, I do see it and I'm very sure it was a 100% conscious decision by the character designers.

Claims directly contradicted by available evidence can be rejected out of hand. Prejudicial claims of plagiarism for which not a shred of evidence exists is asshole behavior.

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 02:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Your "available evidence" comes down to "but I personally don't see it" and "everyone who does is stoopid" so forgive me if I don't think that "evidence" is worth a lot. Fandom doesn't exist in a vacuum and if you seriously argue that there is no way a group of designers all active on tumblr during the huge Overwatch fanhype, a lot of which is made up of currently very popular daddy kink tropes, could ever have been inspired by the character designs and chosen to use that fanhype to their advantage... and insisting it's all just a vague coincidence and the designers only had the purity and sancticity of gay subcultures in mind ...that strikes me as a bit naiive.
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 02:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Your "available evidence" comes down to "but I personally don't see it" and "everyone who does is stoopid" so forgive me if I don't think that "evidence" is worth a lot.

1. All of the Dream Daddy characters are clearly marked with multiple symbols putting them directly into contemporary American gay cultural tropes. All of the Overwatch characters are clearly marked with multiple symbols putting them directly into superhero tropes. For the most part, they don't overlap. The "rough working-class alcoholic with issues" isn't a "scary teleporting assassin." The "bookish geek" isn't a "cowboy gunslinger." The "American bro" isn't a "Japanese cyborg assassin."

2. For some of the comparisons, (Hugo, Craig, and Mat) the only point of similarity is skin tone, and that's pretty darn racist.

Fandom doesn't exist in a vacuum and if you seriously argue that there is no way a group of designers all active on tumblr during the huge Overwatch fanhype, ....

So you're moving the goalposts to say that DD characters are not actually derivative of Blizzard designs, but are derivative of OOC fandom au crack art?

Of course, it's entirely possible that DD could have ripped off Blizzard. In fact there were multiple Chinese mobile games did did rip-off Blizzard. But if you're going to claim that DD actually ripped off Blizzard you need to do a better interpretation of the character designs in question other than matching them up by skin tone and calling them them identical.

EDIT: It strikes me as extremely naive and egocentric to say that DD isn't exactly what it appears and exactly what the creators described, and instead is marketing itself to OOC au crack shippers on tumblr.
Edited 2017-09-07 14:36 (UTC)
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 03:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I mean, if you're going to pair up the tropes, it would be Damien::Widowmaker or Damien::Reaper, but Widowmaker and Reaper are cyberpunk-goth while Damien is classically (and emphatically) retro. Then if you stretch a lot, Robert::McCree, Craig::Lucio, and Hugo::Mei, but that's stretching a lot and, doesn't give you fandom bicycle McCree in a suit and manbun. As I pointed out, it's not that Robert, Craig, and Hugo are terribly original, they're just directly derivative of other stereotypes (rough trade, bro, and academic.)

Other characters really have no place within the Overwatch narrative. Here's a nice analysis of Joseph in relationship to gay conservatives and Angels in America. (Joseph also reminds me a little bit of Ed from Torch Song Trilogy.) Brian is quintessentially suburban middle-aged dad, but gay. Mat is a stereotypical hipster coffee-shop owner.
Edited 2017-09-07 15:20 (UTC)

(Anonymous) 2017-09-07 03:44 pm (UTC)(link)
You're being intentionally obtuse or really don't know what you're talking about here if I look at your additional reply below.

And yes, it's the fanon crack it's based on, that much is obvious. I am very sure the designers are aware of those fanon tropes. No I'm not moving the goalpost as I never implied it was only the canon Overwatch versions of those characters.

I never said they're identical. I also never said they're ripped off or plagiarized. I said that it's not unlikely that someone operating in a certain fandom wouldn't want to sneak in a few shoutouts to a wildly popular fandom with an abundance of daddy kink tropes.

And that isn't naive, that's entirely the wrong word to use here. If you absolutely have to, you might call it in bad faith or something, but naive does not fit.
cbrachyrhynchos: (Default)

[personal profile] cbrachyrhynchos 2017-09-07 03:57 pm (UTC)(link)
You're being intentionally obtuse or really don't know what you're talking about here if I look at your additional reply below.

Yes, by interpreting characters based on what's explicitly shown on the screen, I totally don't know what I'm talking about.

In other news, Hamlet is not a play about a happy family thanksgiving, and Night of the Living Dead isn't a love story.

And yes, it's the fanon crack it's based on, that much is obvious.

So let me get this straight, rather than create a game marketed to a broad demand for LGBTQ-centric material that's been explicitly stated across multiple media and fandoms, the creators of DD chose to be derivative of a much smaller minority slice of Overwatch fandom on one specific site, by creating character designs that match the suspected Overwatch characters only on the basis of skin tone and ethnicity?

(Oh, and lets just ignore all the explicit shout-outs to various fandoms put in the game itself to say that Mat is Lucio because people with locks all look alike.)

EDIT: Mat is Lucio darn it.


Edited 2017-09-07 16:05 (UTC)