fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5293 ]

[ SECRET POST #5293 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5293 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 36 secrets from Secret Submission Post #756.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Urrgh.
It's like they are so terrified of the world, but so *desperate* to be part of it, so they do this weird shite like the t-shirts, or movies, books, whatever. Like the entire world is so scary and evil and also horribly tempting, or something? That they have to be insulated from it at all times, in all places, no matter what.

I feel sorry for the children, and I just recoil from that kind of ...i dunno. Desperation? Fear?

I honestly think that if your belief system can't stand up to swimsuits at horrible w-m or The Avengers, then you really need to reexamine your belief system or yourself, because there is something seriously lacking there, somewhere.

Oh man, so, my mom got on the "D&D is literally satanism" train in the early 90s, and had books about how terrible D&D (and the X-Men and E.T. and literally everything in pop culture and imagination itself) was. You want to talk about a belief system that can't hold up?

There was an epilogue to one of her books on the subject, which apparently was a second edition or some such, where the author addressed a letter he'd gotten from a D&D player "who calls themselves a Christian", and told him that everything in his book about D&D was not true. None of it was true. Wherever he got his information, it was wrong. Players do not LITERALLY cast spells and go out and gather ingredients for them and like, eat real spiders in order to play the game. The player urged the author to actually look at a real D&D manual and see the rules for how the game is played before writing a completely false diatribe about it.

The author's response was like "clearly you are sent by the devil to trick me, I know that as soon as I opened one of those books I would fall under Satan's spell like you did, I will pray for your soul".

...Seriously does this guy think his God is so frail compared to Satan that God couldn't protect his soul if he reads some words in a book in the interest of being properly informed about something he considers a threat to God's kingdom? I dunno. I wouldn't want to follow a God that impotent.

RIGHT? Like...okay, so, 'the devil' tricks you with stuff but...you're too weak to see through it? 'God' is too impotent to protect you? Is everyone playing D&D possessed by demons and the rest of us are just blind idiots?

I can't imagine what the world looks like to these people, that a book about, basically, a board game is so evil and powerful that you can't even look at it, but 'god' will still make sure the right football team or politician wins (apparently sports and politics are *not* satanic?).

I remember the D&D hysteria, homg. Love that game.

I was brought up in the Lutheran church, but it never really interested me or made much sense to me, really, and a lot of it pissed me off, so - pre-teen atheist!

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

digging myself out of it was, I dunno, really weird.

Fear is a very good word for it. And there was this huge amount of disregarding personal responsibility especially for guys. "Oh, I can't help if I have sexy thoughts so you have to dress in a way that's not sexy for me to be pure." (And that's just the purity absolutism aspect, not anything else they place absolutism on. It's twisted.) Plus the "My god is the only real god, and so I'm right, your wrong. I win every time." It can be incredibly damaging because you are NOT prepared for the world b/c you aren't prepared to think critically at all. So, yeah the world does become scary, people are out to hurt you, and omg, they want the GAYS to have RIGHTS and that's against my BELIEFS. -gestures at the Republican party-

Getting out was very freeing. Like "okay, what did Jesus say and this is a metaphor Paul was using" and then tossing the culture the "church" has formed around themselves out was, it's like leaving a CULT, I guess. It wasn't extreme like certain Mormon cults but it's still rather cultlike.

"Be of the world, not in the world" is such a misused phrase and all the verses are taken out of context. (There's like 5 of them.) Drives me crazy.

Their faith is so...flimsy... it can't stand up to outside influences b/c there's no foundations to it. They believe it b/c they've been taught to believe it and to not question it at all. Which is 100% not what the bible teaches or the Jews espouse. And you can't do anything but be loving and supportive and "I'm here if you want to talk" until they decide to get out on their own.

Long reply to say essentially you are correct. And it's a hard subject to tackle in some ways.

Lutherans (my mother's church, what I grew up in) were so very laid back, compared to pretty much everybody else. But it still was totally untenable, unreal, just...beyond me to say 'okay, god says, so i'm good, no more thinking'. I remember a sunday school teacher telling us that 'little babies' in Africa would go to hell because they had never been taught about 'god' and that was pretty much it, the end, i'm done. That was just crazy to me.

The no-responsibility people are particularly icky, because they seem to be the kind that do the nastiest stuff and just don't care (and get away with it).

(CWA)

Lutherans are actually. I went to a Lutheran school for a while and compared to the Baptists/Congregationalists/virtually everyone else they were pretty chill. Maybe b/c Luther was unintentionally a rebel? I dunno.

See, your Sunday School teacher is exactly the type of person in the church I don't like. That statement is 100% Christian imperialism and is so wrong on so many levels. Like that's not what her own religious book SAYS. I'm sorry you had to hear that and you know, completely understandable to reject it. Because who wants to follow a god that rejects babies.

Which he doesn't. It's just... They've taken bits and pieces of verses of the bible and built entire belief systems out of them and it's crazy/bonkers. And then use those beliefs to do cruel things, like you said, and get away with it. Then have completely no self awareness when you point it out.

Like, there is a story how missionaries went to the Inuits and told them the whole Jesus story and how they needed to convert and the Inuits were like "what would happen to us if we never found out." And the missionaries were all "well, you'd go to heaven anyways." (Because they were more reasonable back then I guess.) And the Inuits went "then why did you tell us if we were going to heaven!" And the missionaries were all "B/c everyone should know about God's love" and it's just... I'm over here with the Inuits. "What are you on? Leave us alone!"

I'm not even sure Hell exists anymore, myself. So, there you go. I'll be blasphemous over here. Revelations is a really nice story. I have no faith it's ever going to happen. John of Patmos who? And try saying 'oh I don't believe in Hell' in any church and yeah, excommunication!!!!

(I don't want you to think I'm trying to convert you or saying you're wrong or anything like that, b/c I'm not. I'm finding this a really interesting discussion.)

No worries, I'm conversion-proof. :D
I think any system based on fear (be good or you go to hell, be good or you'll be punished for all eternity, be good even in your head because your *thoughts* can damn you, too, and you're born a bad person anyway so basically you're fucked unless it's all Jesus all the time, be afraid!!) is bound to have some major issues, and hell yeah, rebels, heh.

I *was* always happy that Martin Luther was a rebel, that made me like him, but there was never anything in the sermons, the lessons, or the bible that really made sense to me, or attracted me. It all just seemed very random, a lot of men making rules, and a lot of nonsensical stuff that didn't hang together on close examination. And about 99% of people make you wanna join a Satan-worshipping cult rather than sit and listen to them blather, to be honest.

Missionaries forcefully converting indigenous people always made me seethe with fury, and the fact that there are STILL 'missionaries' out there, using healthcare and food and shelter as a cudgel or a lure makes me sick.

(CWA)

phew.

you've summarized a lot of my issues with it. I just passively believe I guess anymore tossing out the egregious "thought police" nonsense. And most pastors made me so bored b/c they couldn't string anything entertaining together. I'll go listen to comedians okay. At least I'll get a laugh. And I can ignore the preaching at the end.

Christian media makes me seethe b/c it perpetuates these toxic beliefs they have (including using medical care/food and shelter as methods of evangelism is okay) and puts people into abusive situations where they have no bearing or ability to realize it's wrong or way to get out of it without say, sitting through a sermon. Which is bull.
So, I don't like labeling my books as Christian, despite the fact the characters go to church (and motorcycle meeting church) b/c there will be points where I'm going to say "this church teaching is wrong and you need to know it." (But not that bluntly.) Or "this issue is more complicated than we want to think and I'm not sure if the characters are doing the right thing." Which Christian publishers wouldn't let me do. And Christian books have such a BAD reputation as absolute trash. (Outside of Lawhead or Lewis or Tolkien who wouldn't be published today by christian book publishers.) I don't want to be associated with it.

now I want to write a story where they do a job and the person they're helping is all... "but i have to convert." "No." "You have a sermon for me." "no." "Why are you helping me then?!" "Because it is not only the right thing to do, I'm being paid. Now, shhh." Ah well. So many book ideas. So little health/time.

Hee. Yeah.

I always find it kind of bizarre that some Xians can be *so sure* that not only are they 100% right all the time, but that they only Xians can ever really be good, moral, worthy people. Like....really? You see these tribal people, these pagans, these atheists, these Muslims, these Jews doing good things, being amazing people but you STILL think they're damned to hell because they read the 'wrong book' (or no book, or whatever)?

Boggling.

(CWA)

In my experience, they don't "See" them at all. They don't engage with anything outside of their bubble to be able to even learn/know these other cultures are doing good things or have amazing people. They're culture doesn't look like white european culture and so, "it's bad and wrong." And b/c Christianity is so pervasive in America, they don't get it's not the standard around the world and not as pervasive anywhere else so it's like running into a brick wall in their heads people might not know about god at all. We have a culture where there is an organization that puts a bible in EVERY hotel room. That is BONKERS. And other countries do not do that, and most Christians just assume the USA is the center or the world and so what goes on here goes on everywhere. And until they run into it personally and it affects them, everyone else is an abstract like a sunday school song. You can't even get churches of different denominations or ethnicities to interact with each other and they worship the same god. Much less get them to interact with the cultures of other countries or religions/lack of religions.

My only consolation is young people are leaving the church in record numbers. I can't wait for the whole protestant denomination system to fall apart. I have no idea what is going to take it's place. The whole organized church thing is dying and I'm glad. Food pantries shouldn't be making people listen to sermons to get food or say they love God or whatever. Or a rather long list of examples I'd rather not go into.

I'm glad, too. Organized religion is a damn virus. I hate that whole god business on money, in school, in our GOVT - makes me crazy.
Yeah, bibles in hotels, wtf. Makes me want to open a hotel and refuse the fucking Gideons.

(CWA)

It's so pervasive. Like, b/c the US was founded/grew on this culture you can't talk about fixing the country without talking about that culture. And if you try, the screaming ensues.

Anyways, I need to take a break. It was great talking to you about this! Have a great holiday! (Which is really weird to say given the topic. LOL)

YUP.
Enjoy your weekend!

They're culture doesn't look like white european culture and so, "it's bad and wrong."

As a Norse pagan, LOL.

(Everybody is welcome in the pagan community, anyway, but it's kind of funny hearing that POV, because polytheism was there first. And exists in many other traditions around the world, of course.)

(CWA)

I get your POV, I do. White American Evangelical Protestants like to think Norse Polytheism is DEAD. That Christianity destroyed it during the time of Beowulf and every white person is Christian now.

Or should be. It's... crazy. Like any paganism to them is "New Age." (What? Nooo.) They know virtually nothing about Europe or European society and just think it's another America.(Which is nuts.) And racism in Europe works the exact same way as racism in America etc. (Which it doesn't.) This is a very specific, white Protestant Evangelical American, POV. However, in the US b/c from the puritans to Billy Graham style of big tent proselytizing and now Focus on the Family with James Dobson being the latest incarnation of it, the POV is everywhere, especially in Rural Areas that vote Republican. Like, they truly believe when we pulled prayer out of school in the 60s, America went to hell.

This whole "They're culture doesn't look like white european culture and so, "it's bad and wrong."" is a really weird comment considering a very, very large percentage of Christians in the US is Black and Hispanic.

(CWA)

You're correct, there are huge populations of Christians in Africa and Latin America too. Like, most of Latin America is catholic. (But Catholicism is bad b/c it's not Protestantism. They worship idols! And no amount of arguing will get them to think otherwise.) Africa has a huge Christian population (that we have to save from the Muslims, oh noes!) (Yes, I wish I wasn't joking about this. Like they know about Sudan but I'm not sure any information I ever got was accurate. Like info about Isreal and Palestine, not accurate.)

And I'm speaking from a very specific white evangelical protestant Christian POV. So, it's weird by definition.

Here is the thing from my experience, white churches do NOT interact with churches of other races. So, they like, kind of know they exist. In their heads they know in the cities there are black churches and Asian churches and Hispanic churches, (Not that they'd ever attend these churches) if you went to a Southern Baptist Convention, it will be very, very white. And White Baptists don't interact with White Methodists or White Congregationalists or White Pentecostals, even if they're in the same town and sending their kids to the same school! (And don't even bring UP the Catholics, no way will they interact with the CATHOLICS. Or the Calvinists or dear god the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnessses.)

So because everyone they go to church with is white and they interact with is white and they don't do anything with other denominations of any other type or race even though they worship the same GOD, and they believe whatever their Pastor tells them from the pulpit without questioning, they have some very BACKWARDS way of thinking. Like "Blacks don't believe in the family" or other nonsense.

Segregation is alive and well in American churches. I mean that Queen Latifah and Dolly Parton movie was a cute idea, but it's NOT REALITY for most churches. (Unless maybe Unitarians but Protestants don't like Unitarians either. I have no idea why. You stop asking b/c they don't really know either!) Like you can look at statistics and go well "that's dumb there's lots of hispanic and black Christians in the US." And they aren't going to believe you b/c it's not their lived in experience that they've CHOSE.

And like, if your kids go to public school, it might be a bit better. I didn't. I went to church every week, sometimes twice, youth group, and then Christian school with Chapel and "bible classes." (There was one black student even though this was near a city with a decent black population.) And then my parents insisted on a christian college. (which actually had more black students b/c they did an African college exchange program as well as recruiting black students from the city. But no Asians that I remember.) And I got out by going "Uh, I need art school, a real one" after a couple semesters. But there are children who NEVER leave that White US Christian Bubble. And some of them are nice, sweet, people, I mean I went to school with them!

And if you LOOK at the covers of these Christian Romance books (Since most of the books put out are romance books.) They're white, all of them will be white. It's even worse than Harlequin Romance. I mean, at least the secular Romance publishing is trying for POCs. And POC Romance in indie is getting better. But Christian Publishing doesn't even want to recognize a HUGE amount of the Christian population in America is POC. It's crazy. And yes, very weird. It's a very weird subculture I'm glad I'm out of and it feels very hard to explain to people who haven't been exposed even to the edges of it.

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[ SECRET POST #5293 ]

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