[ SECRET POST #2190 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2190 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 064 secrets from Secret Submission Post #313.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

13. http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1435/aspyamongus9.png

[(Anonymous)]

This is interesting. You have to consider that japanese culture is very collectivist. These are the kind of ill-thought out morals that reflect their general culture. While vigilantism and some forms of extremism is what sometimes the Western media glorifies -- reflecting their individualist culture.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, this. It doesn't make it okay, but understanding the cultural background something comes from helps you better understand why something is the way it is, and that understanding makes it easier to discuss and confront the problematic aspects.
I used the word "understanding" way too much in that run-on sentence...

[brightblueink]

Yeah, I agree, Japan's got plenty of its own issues when it comes to this sort of thing. That being said, I have a friend that's bisexual that's currently teaching in Japan, and when I saw her recently while she was visiting for the holidays she told me that she overall felt much more comfortable with people thinking that she was "weird" for her sexuality in Japan than people telling her she was going to hell, like she gets in the States. So in some ways I can understand why it wouldn't be emphasized as much in fandom because in some ways, it's not quite as bad.

[(Anonymous)]

As a bisexual myself, I can appreciate why this would be true. Someone I thinking my sexuality is weird--well that's downright understandable and preferable to be castigated. (Or alternatively, being reassured that "we're okay with that" when they obviously aren't really.)

At the same time I don't think the comparison you make is fair as a general summation of which culuture is "worse" or "better". Both mindsets can have unfortunate pitfalls, just different ones.

[(Anonymous)]

Re: sexuality, I think half the problem is that you get people in Japanese fandoms who think that Japan is the magical utopia of acceptance and tolerance and it's totally cool to be gay there, and that's really not the case. And I'm not exaggerating when I say this. I've gotten into arguments with other fans about how everyone loves gays in Japan because they have yaoi and Hard Gay (ugh, don't get me started), and they're totally down with anyone who's trans because of Haruna Ai (who is super awesome, but also gets used as the butt of jokes a lot of times and is treated awfully by a lot of other celebrities).

I'm queer and I've lived in Japan, and while the way that non-acceptance translates over there is different, it isn't exactly pleasant. I can get where your friend was coming from, though, although I don't really feel the same, based on my own experiences.

[(Anonymous)]

Any specific examples?

(Might be triggery for sexual abuse and sexism?)

[brightblueink]

The first one that comes to mind for me is Ouran High School Host Club. Overall the characters that are crossdressers or gay are seen in a sympathetic light, but Haruhi (who wears a boy's uniform and pretends to be a boy when in the "host club") gets a lot of lectures (mostly from Tamaki) about how she should act more feminine and wear cuter clothing, etc etc.

The worst episode is when she tries to defend some girls that are being harassed by some guys on a beach. When she does, they push her off a cliff into the surf and Tamaki has to dive in after her to save her. The rest of the episode, the other members of the host club (all guys) more or less get after her for "acting like a guy" and trying to defend the girls herself instead of going to get help from one of them. She eventually "learns her lesson" when she stumbles upon one of the host club members in their room when they're half-dressed after taking a shower...and he grabs her and throws her onto the bed underneath him. She decides that he's doing that to convince her that as a woman, she's still at risk for being assaulted and that she should be careful, but based on his reaction it's not 100% clear on if he was trying to do that, or if he was actually just giving in to lust. If you're in the US or Canada, you can see the whole episode here.

There's actually a lot of moments in the series where they're much better about this sort of thing (for example, Haruhi's Dad works as a crossdressing hostess at a bar, and in general he's portrayed as a loving, devoted father who just happens to be more comfortable in women's clothing), but there's still moments like that in the show where it's a little...eehhhh.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I avoided giving specific examples because it's usually not phrased as bluntly as I put it in the secret--it's more of an underlying assumption that gradually becomes apparent if you're exposed to it enough. In addition, even works that contain a lot of it may also have exceptions. (For instance, Persona 4 has way too many subplots in which someone who's discontent with his or her lot in life eventually realizes that he or she likes the way things are after all, but it also includes the character of Kanji, who becomes comfortable in an identity that doesn't match society's expectations.)

[visp]

I can't concentrate on the secret because I'm too distracted by the kitty. He looks so sad, too - like he just wants his meerkat mom to love him.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I found the pic in a collection of ten similar images. I can't find the collection again for some reason, but they were all titled some variation of "I think there's a spy among us". (And yes, it included the most famous one: http://www.anilolz.com/lols/i-think-theres-a-spy-among-us )

[(Anonymous)]

The thing is that none of the media you're talking about was written for Americans, so Americans shouldn't comment on it. It's like white people critiquing gangsta rap. Yeah, it sucks, but it's not for or about you, so move on.

[brightblueink]

So unless you fit a certain demographic, you can't comment on the bad elements of something? I'm really not comfortable with that. I mean, by that logic...nobody over a certain age can comment on a cartoon's portrayal of gender because it's meant for kids. Women can't comment on most forms of media because it's primarily aimed at men. Minorities can't comment on poor portrayals in media aimed at the majority. Japanese people can't comment on any poor portrayals of them in Western media. IDK, the whole thing doesn't make sense to me.

Not to mention that a lot of anime is created with keeping the Western market in mind...particularly anime made in the 2000s. For example, Kino's Journey was funded with money from the American licensing company ADV, Funimation has made several deals to create anime versions of American properties (like Witchblade, Dragon Age and Mass Effect), I believe I recall hearing that Black Blood Brothers was trying to capture the same American market that liked shows like Trigun, etc etc.

[(Anonymous)]

By that logic, no one who isn't American should ever criticize American media.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I grew up in America, but I'm hostile to a lot of elements of American culture, and I welcome anyone else's aid in expressing that hostility, no matter where they come from. I think it works the same in expressing hostility to twisted elements of any culture. Sick and wrong is sick and wrong no matter where you are.

[ill_omened]

Christ you're thick.

It defies belief people like you still drop dumb lines like that.

Get educated pls.

[(Anonymous)]

By that logic, I can't criticize the presentation of women or LGBT characters in video games, because video games are made for straight dudes and not for me, a bi girl. Fuck you.

[anonymouslyyours]

Ooh that's going in my "Fabulous False Equivalencies on Fandomsecrets" list.

[(Anonymous)]

obvious troll is obvious

[kruger]

no but japan is kawaii desu ne????????

[(Anonymous)]

It's a different culture. Go back up your beliefs and protest in the middle of Tokyo yourself if you want real change to happen. Complaining about it on the net is useless. Try living in that country before you judge them. And I don't mean visit, I mean actually live and work in Japan for a few years.

[(Anonymous)]

I also lived in Japan for a year, I happen to be queer, and yeah, the secret is pretty accurate.

The OP was also commenting that they hoped that American consumers of anime actually realized some of the issues with the messages within the media they consume, too. A concern that, as someone who's been in anime fandom for over a decade, I can safely say is warranted. Given that there's a pretty big English-speaking anime fanbase online, and many of those people happen to be American, I don't think bringing it up online is totally out of place.

[(Anonymous)]

I found that it's impossible to discuss Japanese media, because there are only two voices ever. Either OMG JAPAN IS GREAT AND PERFECT AND CAN DO NO WRONG minority voice, or that everything done in Japan has to be worse and anyone who don't love every Marvel DC ever is a weeaboo majority voice.

[(Anonymous)]

Hm, now that you mention it I can think of a good number of anime series whose message is "trying to be yourself/be happy in your own way is selfish, think of how hard it will be on your friendddsss"

[(Anonymous)]

I'm all for examining the stories you consume and speaking out about their values and biases. There are a lot of things in animanga that I'd like to have more of a community sounding board for.

That said, I don't like dogmatism. I'd be really embarrassed if Americans started applying their "our way is the right way!" loudly, on the internet, to manga. Screaming at your own content creators to fall in line with your values can be obnoxious, but is sometimes warranted. They're supposed to be at least partially accountable to you. Screaming because you're consuming media in another language, from another culture, aimed at their public, and it isn't entirely to your taste ... smacks of arrogance and entitlement to me. Not because the Japanese get everything right. They don't. They really don't. But until we have to deal with another culture that has the clout to tell us all the ways we're doing it wrong, using the fact that we consume significant quantities of their media to try and dictate what values we want to see strikes me as imperialist bullying.

Western fans have every reason to talk amongst ourselves about what does and doesn't sit right with us, in animanga. I'd just hate for that to turn into some stupid, crusading attitude towards what we think "should" be made in Japan.