Nonverbal non-consent is not illegitimate, it's just much harder to read. Pushing away would be very clear. So would flinching be. But a slightly absent look in their eyes, or simply silence (unless that is very atypical of them), or even less-enthusiasm-than usual might very well be signs of displeasure...or they might be signs of tiredness, having other things on their mind, etc.
I can think of occasions where I had sex in exactly those circumstances..and where I chose to have sex despite those circumstances. And yes, often my partner picks up on that...sometimes he doesn't.
So what we're talking about here: is that action that you have taken, within the context of that relationship, reasonably clear to be seen as non-consent? And if a partner is not capable of reading those signs correctly, without any malice intended, is it then still reasonable to accuse them of a crime as heinous as rape?
I do not see manipulation quite the same as rape. I also had an ex who was rather manipulative and frankly, a pathological,unfaithful liar. The situation was a bit reversed, as from what I could make out, there had been some abuse inflicted on him at some point (but it's very hard to get to the actual truth even there) Looking back, if having all the info, I might not have gotten involved with him. But still,anything sexual that went on between us, was consensual considering the info I had at that time. Finding out that he lied to me about some things, does not make it rape retro-actively, no matter how bad the deceit might have been.
And I do fear this thread has indeed gotten massively out of hand. And after a while I did just reply in short, simplified, answers that are in fact too simplified for the matter at hand.
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Nonverbal non-consent is not illegitimate, it's just much harder to read. Pushing away would be very clear. So would flinching be. But a slightly absent look in their eyes, or simply silence (unless that is very atypical of them), or even less-enthusiasm-than usual might very well be signs of displeasure...or they might be signs of tiredness, having other things on their mind, etc.
I can think of occasions where I had sex in exactly those circumstances..and where I chose to have sex despite those circumstances. And yes, often my partner picks up on that...sometimes he doesn't.
So what we're talking about here: is that action that you have taken, within the context of that relationship, reasonably clear to be seen as non-consent? And if a partner is not capable of reading those signs correctly, without any malice intended, is it then still reasonable to accuse them of a crime as heinous as rape?
I do not see manipulation quite the same as rape. I also had an ex who was rather manipulative and frankly, a pathological,unfaithful liar.
The situation was a bit reversed, as from what I could make out, there had been some abuse inflicted on him at some point (but it's very hard to get to the actual truth even there)
Looking back, if having all the info, I might not have gotten involved with him.
But still,anything sexual that went on between us, was consensual considering the info I had at that time.
Finding out that he lied to me about some things, does not make it rape retro-actively, no matter how bad the deceit might have been.
And I do fear this thread has indeed gotten massively out of hand. And after a while I did just reply in short, simplified, answers that are in fact too simplified for the matter at hand.