fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2698 ]

[ SECRET POST #2698 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2698 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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04. http://i.imgur.com/x1ReEav.png
[Curvy; linked for porn, illustrated]

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05. http://i.imgur.com/CEL6gFP.jpg
[linked for gore and stuff]

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06. [SPOILERS for Captain America: The Winter Soldier]

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07. [SPOILERS for Godzilla 2014]

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08. [SPOILERS for Wreck-it Ralph]

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09. [WARNING for rape]
http://i.imgur.com/uGSGQZF.jpg
[Starfighter, porn from it]

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10. [WARNING for rape]

[Daughter of Smoke and Bone]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #385.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 (I don't think this really counts) - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

There's something about that notion that really rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure if the feeling is legitimate or not.

In any case, shipping preferences (and even the tendency to ship) typically change over time. It's less a case of "growing out of" and more a case of personalities not being static. But what changes and what doesn't varies according to person.

I'm less of a shipper than I was when I was younger, but when I do connect with a ship, it now has a greater chance of being slash. I feel like that would blow the minds of the people you're referencing.

It's not just you; it rubs me wrong too. It's implying that liking queer pairings is a phase, just like people say it's just a phase to identify as queer. Same concept. It also implies slash fans are young, and will move on to more legitimate interests as they age.

Yeah, it seems like that's what I was feeling; I just wasn't able to connect it to a coherent thought.

There's a definite "othering" implicit in the suggestion that people will grow out of it, as if it doesn't correspond to something real.

It also rubs me the wrong way.

It's the implication that m/m relationships are some kind of training wheels for the real thing. The real thing being m/f.

I think if you're young when you first encounter slash, in a fandom that's mostly slash pairings, you might indeed grow out of it. ie you were never really into it in the first place, it was just the first sexual material you came across.

When I hear people say they've grown out of slash, I assume they're still quite young, or at least immature. Saying you've grown out of something (clothes, music) is something children say when they want to sound grown up.

I think if you're young when you first encounter slash, in a fandom that's mostly slash pairings, you might indeed grow out of it. ie you were never really into it in the first place, it was just the first sexual material you came across.

This was basically my experience back when I was in a fandom with minimal fleshed out male-female dynamics in canon. Back then, most het fics I found on FFnet are mostly a rehash of hetero dynamics in mainstream fiction and the slash fics in contrast focused more on developing the characters.

It's the implication that m/m relationships are some kind of training wheels for the real thing. The real thing being m/f.

Yes! It plays into that whole idea that it's "just a phase." And, now that I think about it, it allows people to present themselves a open-minded while still hewing to very conservative social views.

Saying you've grown out of something (clothes, music) is something children say when they want to sound grown up.

That is very true. The older I get, and the more comfortable I become with myself, the less I feel like I have to distance myself from the things I liked when I was younger. Many of my tastes have changed, but some haven't, and I'm okay with admitting that I still like some things that I was into when I was 15.

I first assumed it meant that slash was training wheels for gen, once you grow out of the naive young-person phase where you have never experienced a real, serious, mature, adult romantic relationship and realize romance is not the end-all be-all of life and shipping is not the end-all be-all of fandom either.

But singling out slash, as opposed to slash/het/femslash/all shipping in general, definitely is weird and whitewashes the fact that het is just as overindulgent and unrealistic and full of dumb tropes as slash is.

Maybe it is a first erotica effect for some people, but those who think everyone will grow out of it are wrong. For some of us, it's a legitimate kink and most kinks don't fade, no matter how old you get.

I'm a straight woman and my sure fire wank fantasy is two guys sexing each other up while I watch. (strike)And give directions.(/strike)

I'm a straight woman and my sure fire wank fantasy is two guys sexing each other up while I watch. (strike)And give directions.(/strike)

Yeah, no, that sounds like the kind of creepy fetishisation that queer folks don't need.

Yep. Because enjoying smut for you very own private entertainment is totally the same as telling queer people to go down and fuck in front of you for your amusement. It harms exactly not one single queer person what some woman dreams up in her head for wanktime.

it's the 'and now~ some queers of my own~ (wiggly fingers)' vibe that I'm specifically referring to, but I suspect you know that

Woman's allowed to have fantasies about domming two men from a distance.

and queer people are still allowed to call your creepiness creepy, hth

Yep, rubs me the wrong way. So does "I hate slash".

Then again, I'm gay. So... yeah, nice to know pairings of my sexual orientation are immature, and across the board hate-worthy. Oops.

"I hate slash" is very different from "I hate gay couples in fiction" though. The two categories are WILDLY different. Slash is overwhelmingly the result of straight female desire projected onto straight male characters, with a whole bevy of associated tropes that have little to do with the authentic experience of homosexuals and mainly to do with what turns straight (or bi) women on.

Which is totally fine of course -- fanfiction is all about what gives the fan pleasure -- but it's not at all similar to actual subversive gay readings of texts, or at all comparable to actual gay characters portrayed in storylines as having actual same-sex relationships and facing the sort of actual issues gay people face.

I disagree. Slash, especially today, pretty much just means two guys shipped together. The way it's used doesn't even always mean non-canon. It's just a fandom word for gay. Are there tropes associated with slash pairings? Sure. I'm not sure what that proves or disproves, though, the same tropes generally apply to romance in general, and certainly het.

"I hate slash" means "I hate gay pairings in fiction." I'm sorry, it seems like a stretch to deny it.

(and for the record, I understand not having interest in slash - I don't have interest in heterosexual things. I'm not judging. But saying you hate it? means something very different to me)

nayrt

Nope. Uh uh. Sorry, that's just not true. I guess it would true if someone meant "I hate slash on principle and always will," but if someone meant "I hate the slash fic that's available to me in all my fandoms" or "I hate non-canon shipping (and 95% of slash IS non-canon)" that does NOT mean "I hate gay pairings in fiction."

For example, I hate most het fic. I am bisexual and can't fucking stand most of the het fic I can find, even for the het couples I ship in canon, because they almost always ring 100% false to me and my experiences. For that matter, most of the het couples in the canons of the shows I like seem like a waste of screentime -- not because the couples are all bad (although a lot of them are), but because I can't stand all the self-obsessed will-they-won't-they USTy misunderstandings and switcheroos canon het couples always come packaged in.

Also, I generally don't like shipping non-canon pairings, so my options for slash pairings are rather limited -- there are only a couple of non-canon slash pairings I ship. There are also a couple of canon gay pairings I ship, but very few people write fic for them because they do not contain the type of characters that attract slashers. If I were really interested in romance, I would probably go "fuck it, lemme ship non-canon" but for me personally, when it comes to fanfic, IDGAF about romance. I am more interested in gen. Most of the popular slash ships? I hate most of the fic I see for it -- so much focus on romance to the detriment of all the stuff I'm way more interested in, and usually with dumb unrealistic tropes to boot, just like het.

What I would really like? I would really just like there to be some nice canon same-sex romantic subplots in my shows so I can have the pleasure of seeing some non-heterosexual couples when I'm watching my show, rather than having to wade into the world of slash and femslash fanfic to get it -- and as I said, I have no interest in slash and femslash because IDGAF about romance-focused fanfic and in all my fandoms, the slash and femslash is all about the romance.

For the aforementioned couple of non-canon slash pairings I ship and which actually have fanfic written about them, I have been able to find just a FEW slash stories that are not focused on the romance and just have the slash pairing as a background couple. Some of these I like, but in the fandoms I'm in and the few pairings I ship, they're VERY few and far between. So really, "I hate slash" DOES pretty much describe my attitude to slash. I don't want to waste my time on fucking romantic fanfic, slash OR het. I want gay and lesbian couples in my CANON where I can enjoy it while I'm watching, and then avoid it when I'm looking for the gen fic I prefer.

BTW, if anyone's reading this, I'd love recs for TV shows that have gay or lesbian characters who have same-sex relationships, but which aren't all about fucking romance. Do they exist?

DA

You protest way too much.

ayrt

Sorry for the tl;dr, but this has been a very long-running frustration of mine, which is why I've got such a lot of ranting piled up.

You can try House of Cards (US), if you like.

it's not at all similar to actual subversive gay readings of texts

Could you explain the difference?

I'm curious about what the "authentic experience of homosexuals" is. I wonder if I've got that going with my girlfriend.

Well, slash fic usually has very little in common with RL? Especially for guys, since most slash fic is written by girls. So saying "I hate slash" is basically the same as saying "I hate het" -- not because of the genders of the people involved, but because of all the irritating tropes that have no connection to reality.

I'm just not so sure that there are absolutely no gay couples that fit the archetypes of the common slash pairings. Is it a problem that people act like every couple is like that? Of course. But I don't think that means couples that happen to be similar to the stereotypes are nonexistent and less authentic.

It just bugs me when people deny that there's anyone in a marginalized group that fits a stereotype instead of saying that the problem is that everyone is assumed to be like that, because there is often nothing inherently wrong with the stereotype.

My girlfriend and I fit some stereotypes and I think that's okay.

ayrt

Ah I understand. I was speaking in generalizations about stock stereotypes that are constantly repeated and often shoehorned onto characters that don't fit them. There's nothing wrong with the stereotype per se, but the way they're used (and overused) by fandom has an irritating effect of negating the uniqueness of the characters involved and their relationships until they're just Stock Slash Stereotype #1 and Stock Slash Stereotype #2.

Now, some couples DO fit slash stereotypes, which would be fine, if those were the only slash couples I shipped. But even then, if I'm overexposed to a narrow diet of the exact same thing, even a thing that I liked just fine the first time I saw it, it starts getting really annoying and restrictive after a while.

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[ SECRET POST #2698 ]

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