fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2722 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2722 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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(reply from suspended user)

Would you like to talk about her amazing boobs? because we can do that. For a really long time. And possibly introduce discussion of other amazing boobs. Like, say, for instance the boobs of Teyla. Teyla's boobs. Which I love.

Aw, man, you shouldn't feel that way. It's never wrong to admire ScarJo's glorious boobs and butt and face and hair and eyes omg her eyes. She's gorgeous, she just not only gorgeous, and it bugs people that she's gets questions about her diet and wearing underwear in a catsuit while her hot male costars are regarded for more than their looks. Objectification is all about context, and you are an observer, not the person behind the camera or wielding the art pen or asking the interview questions who needs know how to turn off their admiration of boobs for a minute to be fair and professional and convey a story. All that's required of you is to like what you see and express it where appropriate, and fandom is appropriate, because fandom.

And also because boobs are awesome.

good comment is good.

objectifying is more about reducing a person to nothing but their body - appreciating a nice bod is not objectifying.

AYRT

That makes total sense. It's not wrong to just like looking at boobs, but it's true that most of fandom is not very accommodating to people who want to admire ladies without being creepy about it. It's like, either you're gonna shack up with the straight dudely side where the fetishizing goes too far, or you're gonna be surrounded by more socially-conscious people who, even when they're bi and lesbians, are mostly only into dudes. There's precious few corners where it's just all about loving the female body in positive ways. It's pretty fucked up.

I definitely thought I was the only one who felt that way.

I get this feeling when something comes up saying there need to be more depictions of women that cater to other women instead of the male gaze. I feel wrong because I don't know how these people can tell the difference between women being sexy for men and women being sexy for lesbians and bi women.

NAYRT

This conversation is making me think there's something subtly lesbian-phobic about the popular distinction between the male and female gaze. There's a place for men to admire men and women, and a place for women to admire men, but women admiring women is like...okay, even though we acknowledge that there's a difference between, say, what guys tend to like in men and what women tend to like in men, what about what women tend to like in women? Does anybody talk much about that?

NAYRT but it's an interesting topic that I've been thinking a lot about lately.

1) I don't think there's anything wrong with finding those centerfolds or that art hot as fuck, because it is hot as fuck. The problem is that it's something hot as fuck that's produced in an exploitative structure but that doesn't change the fact that it is hot as fuck or make that reaction somehow wrong. More broadly, I don't think there's a problem with the male gaze as such - human being is embodied being, human beings are semblances and appearances and appear to the gaze of others. It's something that's inseparable from existing as a human being and it's one of the ways that we interact with other human beings.

The problems (and this is such a common thing that it's rote to say and I feel like a dummy but that doesn't mean it's not true) comes from preponderance and exclusivity and exaggeration - the fact that the camera is always an implied male viewpoint, the fact that a sexualized male gaze is so widespread, that there's so much less female gaze in media, and the existence of a hyper form of male gaze that reduces and caricatures and turns people into nothing more than an object, and so on and so forth.

2) I think there are differences between the way that female gaze and male gaze operates. Obviously we're in the realm of massive generalizations here but I think those differences do exist in identifiable ways, more and more. I mean, there's really not anyplace in fandom (this part of fandom anyway) where you can just talk about boobs, but not only that - fandom just has fundamentally different conversations about male and female characters. I mean, it doesn't just extend to physical characteristics. The kind of appreciation that gets expressed about male characters, those conversations don't seem to happen the same way about female characters. For instance you can say that a female character is badass, you can say that they're pretty, you can say that they're hot, you can say that they're adorable, but it seems very rare that you get a conversation where all those qualities are combined, whereas for male characters it's not at all rare. That's only part of it of course. Some of it is also just in what is and is not attractive, and there are some times when it really isn't different, which is also OK.

You can kind of see this trend in porn, too. It seems to me that slash fic and het fic (let alone het porn) actually mostly operate differently. They seem to do different things. The way that slash fic writes about bodies and interactions between people, and the way that het fic and a lot of femslash writes about those things, are different. I'm not saying that het fic is malegaze and that slash fic is femalegaze - it's probably more complicated than that. But I do think that the way that the way that male characters get written about in fandom is qualitatively different from the way that women characters get written about in fandom, and from the way that women get portrayed in the culture more broadly. It's tough to put your finger on what the difference is and trying to do so would make this a million times more complicated. But I think the difference is there, and I think it's a difference in the way that it's talked about and thought about. I mean a lot of the same stuff is going to be hot either way, you know?

And I don't think there's any reason that a space like that couldn't exist in fandom. I think there's room for being attracted to female characters the way you're talking about in fandom. It would probably not be a space entirely for being gay (as shown by EG I am a basically hetero dude) but there's no reason it can't exist.

Okay that's a lot of words, hopefully not all of them are incoherent, but basically I agree with you that it's okay and should exist

Like I can usually tell the difference between gay stuff for girls and gay stuff for guys, but for some reason I can't tell the difference with lesbian stuff for lesbians and just plain male gaze.

Same. I find a lot of fanservice to be hot even though it apparently isn't aimed at me. I just want to see hot women being sexy, it doesn't matter how they're being sexy.

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