fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2722 ]

[ SECRET POST #2722 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2722 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 067 secrets from Secret Submission Post #389.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - spam comment ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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DA

what they end up doing is using SJ concepts to justify their ship/fandom preferences (i.e. as ship war ammo)

Yes, this exactly. (I almost made a secret about this a year or so ago but chickened out.) Fandom wars have always been brutal, but now it's about taking SJ concepts and using them to tear down/discredit the fans who don't support your favorite ship/character. Why have just an ordinary ship war when you can paint the other side as racist misogynists (for example)? That's why it's hard for me to take a lot of this seriously, because it's all coming from the angle of "people hate my favorite character/ship - there is plainly no good reason why someone might not like my favorite character/ship or might prefer a different character/ship (or in some cases may like this character/ship I don't like) - I must show why everyone who doesn't like my favorite character/ship is a bad person" and then twisting SJ concepts to fit that agenda.

This post is so much bullshit.

How so?

The assumption that SJ issues are because of shipping preferences, as though all the people who disagree with certain statements ship outside of their preference.

Sometimes it really is just about what people say it's about. Pretending that people are just saying these things to support their ship is just another way to silence them and devalue what they have to say, regardless of how true it may or may not be.

*Their is a reference to the OP's preference.

Hm... I don't think that assumption (that SJ issues are entirely because of shipping preferences) is one that was being made at all. I think what we're saying is that legitimate SJ issues are being used as fuel in ship wars that have no impact on making the world a better place and are just arguments between fans.

It's not that social justice arguments are invalid, and we're definitely not claiming that SJWs care about SJ only in the context of fandom. What I'm trying to say is that valid SJ concepts are being adapted to the world of shipping and fandom to justify why one pairing is right and the other is wrong in a way that doesn't make the world better and may even make it worse.

I assume in the mind of an SJW they believe they are making the world a better place by calling out sexism/racism wherever they see it, but I think mainly they're having a spat with other fans who have very little influence on what kinds of shows and movies get made, and even possibly are making people who DO have a positive influence on the world (like the subthread-starter) feel like a misogynist piece of trash simply because they aren't interested in a fictional female character.

Thank you for saying what I'm trying to say far more coherently.

Except I was responding to a post that was doing exactly that.

It's possible I've gotten the threads mixed up.

To clarify, the post I responded to, came after a post which blamed shipping for them being called a misogynist. I was responding to their post within the context of it backing up the original.

What, hit a nerve? I can't take anyone seriously if they're only using SJ concepts to bash everyone who doesn't like their ship, or bash everyone who ships a competing ship.

Except, your accusation is a false one. Trivializing others arguments on the basis that it is shipper nonsense is just a weak way to devalue their position.

lmao

And it continues. Eyes.

And using SJ arguments to dismiss people's reasons for liking/not liking something is just such a great way to devalue people's opinions?

To be honest, I don't think using SJ arguments is effective, even if they are true, but I obviously don't see the issue the same way you do.

I see it not as SJ because you don't like what I like, but instead SJ because what you said about what I like is offensive.

Curious to see how many more logical fallacies will show up in these Trek threads.

Uhura bashing really does typically come from those who ship K/S, you admit that yourself. Don't pretend then, that people who defend the character and call out Kirk/Spock shippers for bashing her in a way that minimizes and negatively portrays the only female POC with lines in the film, are only doing so because they don't like your ship.

Really, it has nothing to do with Kirk/Spock as a ship and everything to do with the fact that SOME of the people who ship it really have some issues.

No one here said anything about bashing except you, unless you define "bashing" as "does not ship Spock/Uhura". And this idea that any criticism of the SU ship whatsoever, no matter how politely done, is bashing is quite frankly ridiculous. Not saying there isn't some KS shippers with issues, but there are (or were at least when I was in the fandom a few years ago) also a lot of SU shippers using the issue of racism just to score hits on KS shippers.

And my post wasn't just about Trek fandom. I've seen this in a lot of fandoms. I just used Trek because the thread OP did.

Um, I am however talking about the type of situation the person who brought up Star Trek was talking about. No one has to ship Spock/Uhura and not shipping it does not equal bashing and I never suggested that it does.

What I am referring to is not a criticism of the S/U relationship but attacks that specifically call out Uhura for supposed shortcomings that everyone else gets a pass for, shoddy writing, for example.

Please do not redefine words for me and try to derail by again accusing K/S shippers of being the victims of some elaborate ship war and hate campaign on my part or the part of S/U shippers. It's ludicrous. Anyone active in the fandom can see what's going on here.

"...also a lot of SU shippers using the issue of racism just to score hits on KS shippers." What?

Tu quoque.

Hence the 'what?'

I think possibly I meant "score points", not "score hits". *facepalm* I was trying to type on my iPhone and my screen kept jumping around on me and I was getting increasingly aggravated. So it's not surprising that it didn't make a great amount of sense.

Regardless, I am deeply regretting getting involved in this conversation in the first place. I was irritated by the "bullshit" remark but I shouldn't have responded when irritated. I am not interested in getting in an argument about ships in a fandom that I haven't even been involved in for years. My initial comment, as I responded below, was more about general trends in fandom than about any one particular one. And I will leave it there.

"...a lot of SU shippers using the issue of racism just to score hits on KS shippers." While I was not active during the referenced times and cannot speak to them, as of now, no one cares about your ship except you and the other people who ship it. So ship it. What does that have to do with Uhura? What does it have to do with Spock/Uhura? Absolutely nothing.

S/U, for all that it is the largest Het ship, is a pretty quiet part of fandom. How can this comparatively small ship be causing all of this turmoil in the megaship that is K/S?

I believe in fandom being a fun place for all who are interested in the fandom. It stops being that way when the majority of the conversation about certain characters becomes repetitively and consistently negative. There is room for improvement for all of the characters, but that is rarely explored, instead focusing on Uhura.

Truthfully, while K/S is not my OTP, I do enjoy the some of the fic and fanart and have no problem with the ship. I do get tired of people trashing Uhura, though.

As a fan of Uhura, I get tired of being handed shit and being told it's pie. 'Oh, I love Uhura, but...' or 'I loved her in the Original Series, but now she's...', which starts these long posts about all the things wrong with her, yet again.

*headdesk* I am not even in the Trek fandom anymore. I haven't been for years. I have no ship to be shipping. Let me see if I can get back to my original point if that's even possible anymore. My comment (originally) was about fandom in general, and a growing trend I've seen over the last few years, especially since Tumblr got started but it isn't unique to that, to call out dislike of a character or ship based on SJ reasons, but not make an honest effort to examine broader fandom trends.

Just for EXAMPLE, people tend to attribute Spock/Uhura dislike to racism and completely ignore all other arguments against it. It was pretty much the same story with Arthur/Gwen in Merlin. But if people are so dead set against interracial relationships, why is Ichabbie (Sleepy Hollow) so popular? Or Olitz? (Scandal) People pick out a lineup that fits their theory and build a case around it, and discount other reasons. For example, both Trek and Merlin had as their focus a character (Kirk, Merlin) not included in the ship. Not so Sleepy Hollow or Scandal. Martha on Doctor Who was replacing a wildly popular character and ship - that never works to the replacement character's advantage, even when they're white (ask Jonas Quinn and Riley Finn, or Eleanor Bishop ). The latest that's about to become a thing is Flash and the Barry/Iris pairing, and people are already calling people out as racist for not shipping them, even though in that case the writers were stupid enough not to consider that setting them up as pseudo-siblings (raised in the same house) might be offputting to people. (And before someone brings up Wincest, incest is just not really the thing in het that it can be in slash). And the show hasn't even started yet, so who knows - Barry/Iris might end up being huge.

Just.....it's not always about SJ issues and I wish people wouldn't jump to that first. And I'm done here.

Re: Getting this off my chest...

(Anonymous) - 2014-06-18 01:57 (UTC) - Expand

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