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fandomsecrets2007-11-30 04:29 pm
degrees.livejournal.com) wrote in fandomsecrets2007-11-30 04:29 pm
[ SECRET POST #329 ]
⌈ Secret Post #329 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Reminder: We're going to close the secret submission post at 350, and we're nearly there, so don't forget to submit!
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #047.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, 0 not!secrets, 0 repeats.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Saturday, December 1st, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2007-12-01 07:51 am (UTC)(link)My point wasn't necessarily about goodfic vs. badfic as much as Envy fandom mentality as a whole. And actually (I could be a little more general) overall FMA fandom. So many people enter the FMA fandom with this fanbrat mentality of "Omg Edo is so hawt!!111" and "lol Envy palmtree!11" and they don't realize that um... more is going on in the series than that. I mean sure, it's awesome to enjoy fangirly moments and all, but seriously. Maybe I'm just being elitist, but this is an awesome series and I wish more people could enjoy it for what it is, not for how much canon-rape they can inflict on it.
My point (and maybe I'm just biased because Envy is my favorite character and I notice it more) is that Envy seems to get the short end of the stick here as oppose to say, Winry or Roy or Havoc (although they can be written OOC, too). In my experience, a lot of Havoc fans like Havoc for who he is IC. Envy has a lot of fans, but a lot of them (note: "a lot", not "all") like him for all the wrong reasons and that's a bitch when you're one of the minority who fell in love with the vulnerable, violent, angry, bastard that he is. Yes, I see it in fic. I also see it in art, discussion, and in general attitude. And yes, I am rightfully going to be bothered by it. Sometimes fandom really does get on my nerves and guess what? I have the right to bitch.
It gets tiring when 85% of the time when I say to someone, "I like Envy!" and they reply "I like Envy too!" I realize that we're not talking about the same Envy. At all. Not all of fandom is like that, but holy crap.
Sure, it's always a positive thing to write for a particular fandom. But you're missing the point that one person can't really change the fandom unless it's a relatively small one, which FMA is not, or unless you're a BNF (which I'm not).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're assuming too much about me. You're assuming that I've never written Envy fic, that I've apparently left fandom, etc. I don't know. Maybe I just wasn't very clear?
In any case, your overall hurtful attitude about it kind of made me want to stay away from that end of the fandom even more, so thanks.
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(Anonymous) 2007-12-01 07:54 am (UTC)(link)no subject
Hell, I couldn't stop thinking about your secret to such an extent that I even made an LJ post about it (http://hieronymousb.livejournal.com/201662.html), partly because fuck, I do feel your pain. I have been in that same place with Envy fandom. I apologize that the post in question is likely the catalyst for the secret someone wrote in response here. I'm not saying you and I would necessarily see Envy exactly the same way, but I have spent a lot of time thinking about this character and trying to analyze him, and while I am not certain that I have reached any sort of conclusive feelings on what I think he is like and I always feel like I'm reaching new theories and seeing him in a slightly different light, well, I still feel like I wish I could discuss him with someone else who at least has put a lot of thought into him.
The thing about everyone seeing Envy differently: Yeah, that gets to me as well. Some of that I blame on fanbratness, but some of it, I think, stems from the fact that manga Envy and anime Envy are totally different characters and that neither were really terribly developed in canon. I believe one can take Envy in, well, several different directions, from being kind of sympathetic to being ho'shit, not fucking sympathetic in the least. Envy's canonical anime persona obviously changed as the writers switched from following the manga to making up their own story. He went from being indifferent and aloof and sarcastic to being a pile of energy and emotion. I believe this accounts for a lot of his fanfic disparity. And Envy fans, well, some of them tend to be quite vocal in what take on Envy they prefer. Some...the "fanbrats", such as they were, want him to be all. Well. Wtfever you'd call it. And some like to see him get knocked into a more vulnerable position. And some like him exclusively as being cruel and sadistic. And some, like me, like a little bit of everything (but I admit I have a bit of a love for trying to probe his vulnerable side).
no subject
meta posing asfanficwutwut. I mean, people were saying the fandom was dying the very same month I began writing fan fiction at all, so imagine how much of a crushing blow to my drive that was, y'know? I am not trying to berate you or push you into writing fic if you don't want to. I'm just saying that it's never too late and you may be underestimating yourself. And honestly, one can help to alter a fandom simply by writing meta or chatting with other fans or spreading the good word. Interaction, discussion, comments--if you love talking about Envy, then really, I think you should talk about him to people. Maybe just in doing that, you can get people to re-consider him. I have before. And believe me, I have fought a lot of that "lol palmtree" shit myself, and I've not made a dent in a LOT of it, but I have changed a few people's minds about Envy. I've made some of my friends re-consider his worth as a character, and for every fanbrat I fail to persuade to see Envy as a deeper, more interesting character, those ONE or TWO changed minds mean SOMETHING.So regardless of what you do, OP, I hope you will consider that maybe your opinion means more than you realize. (http://hieronymousb.livejournal.com/202642.html) If you love Envy and you have a great passion for discussing him, you can draw out the interests of others. Maybe not everyone. But someone.
Edit. I am aware that making a post about your fandom secret on my LJ and making the big deal out of it that I did there may seem a touch creepy or stalker-ish or obsessive, and I sometimes worry about running other Envy fans off with excessive enthusiasm myself (the exact opposite of what I wish for), but when I saw your secret, it REALLY spoke to me, and I thought of writing a secret in reply, but I couldn't think of what to say and it wouldn't have been terribly secret anyway. Even though I can see you're feeling upset and disillusioned with the fandom even more now, I am glad you replied here, and even if you ultimately disagree with everything else I have said, I hope you will consider the part about your opinion as a lurker meaning a great deal.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2007-12-02 07:36 am (UTC)(link)I am glad that you and I share a lot of the same frustrations about Envy fandom. I hadn't thought that some of the differences in interpretation may be due to the difference in manga Envy vs. anime Envy. You're right - neither of them were completely developed in canon, but I think that's what makes Envy so fascinating in that, as you pointed out, he can be interpreted and developed in an infinite amount of ways. If he had been too developed in canon, I highly doubt I would have been as intrigued by him. Canon gives us so little information about how he feels, what his motivations are, and hell, even 99% of what his backstory may have been, but that's what makes us fans yearn for more and want to explore these details (and the "what if's") so greatly.
And I think this is what bothers me about a lot of the fandom, because I don't feel as though a lot of fans attempt to explore him in any kind of way. Or at least, not in any kind of rational way. All he has in canon is a complex persona and unfortunately, few people seem to appreciate the beauty in what canon delivers.
About lurking (and I suppose this is kind of my reply to your meta) I suspect that one of the greatest problems for me is that FMA was my first anime, and I didn't know fandom even existed until after I had watched FMA in its entirety, so from the very beginning I developed my own unique ideas about basic characterization, shipping preferences, etc. before I was influenced by other fans. And while it's great to be influenced positively by amazing fanfiction, and to hold intriguing discussions, and hell, to even disagree with people on certain points, I unfortunately found that a lot of fandom operates on a hivemind mentality. Luckily, FMA isn't nearly as bad as some of the HUGE fandoms, but it is still kind of threatening to someone such as myself who holds very different viewpoints about everything, whether it be Envy, or my OTP, or whatnot. It's not like I can't listen to other people or appreciate other people's interpretations or even change my mind because of a fanfic I read, but I always feel like the odd one out and I have a hard time coming forth when I feel I might be jumped on. I see Fandom Wank and I don't want to end up there! It's easy to believe that I am perhaps unwelcome here. Hence, I tend to do a lot of lurking. So, I think you're right when you say that there are a lot of Sane, Logical Envy fans who may also be hiding in lurkerdom.
But you are right - chances are I could do some good in fandom if I became more vocal about my interpretations and I began discussing things, because even if I can't change the whole fandom, I could probably persuade at least a few people. And maybe I could even get a few more lost souls to delurk and share their own ideas.
Hearing your experience actually helped me realize that I'm not alone on this issue and it reinstated the faith I really needed to have - both in myself and in fandom, because now I'll look at both in a different light. I just never really felt welcome, I guess, but now I'm convinced I'm needed somewhere.
So I wanted to tell you - thank you for having faith in me, and for spending all this time replying to some anonymous person on the Interwebs :D
no subject
(And for the record? I wasn't the one who submitted the above secret, but I have to admit I had exactly the same thought when I first read your secret - "holy crap, this person needs to hook up with
no subject
My story is this: Two years ago--just a bit over now--in November of 2005, I became obsessed with Envy. However, I didn't really begin writing fan fic until I met a number of others from the FmA community (most of them not Envy fans, but the good writers of the fan community such as Cryogenia and Mikkeneko and Sky Dark and the like) and was inspired by their enthusiasm for the series and their works. In March of 2006, I began writing a very long and in-depth (perhaps overly in-depth, as it is often quite internalized) fanfic about Edward and Envy which attempts to both have a plot and explore their characters--but especially Envy's--and tease out all the vulnerable and broken elements of Envy's personality while also satisfying my kinks and incorporating something of a plot. Fic is now over 200,000 words long. The month I began writing said fic is the month the anime completed its first dubbed run in the United States. Immediately after the anime concluded, there was a huge fandom drop-off. People began saying the fandom was "dying". I had just started writing. I was a bit devastated, but I kept writing. And I'm still writing today. Not as quickly, no, but I've not given up.
I have a number of friends who would not in any way give Envy the time of day if it weren't for the time I have spent trying to convince people that he has the potential to be a complex and interesting character. I think they would be willing to attest as much.
Now again, I'm not saying we'd see Envy in exactly the same way. But I have spent a ton of time analyzing his motives and drawing conclusions. Yet I've rarely cultivated many friendships with people who already had strong opinions about Envy for themselves. Most people I've talked about Envy with have either been people I've convinced to give him a chance or people who began liking him in the first place due to my fan fiction extrapolations of his character. I suppose there is a cowardly part of me which is somewhat afraid that I'll get my hopes up with other Envy fans--that I'll try to talk to them and realize that we see him so differently and that we fail to see eye to eye to such an extent that even if they have strong opinions about him, I will be unable to relate, and I admit that in some childish way it is slightly hurtful to go to someone thinking you have something major in common only to feel thwarted by their indifference towards your perspective.
no subject
HOWEVER, I have a good feeling about you, based on how you seem to see the character. You described him as "vulnerable [always a good word to start off with for Envy, imho--and not all Envy fans would agree there, but fuck, this is my perspective], angry [YES] and violent". All qualities I see in him. Anyway, if you want to talk Envy (or if you want to talk, period), my email is also perjautse@gmail.com. I'm planning to try to make an Envy meta post in my LJ soon to stir up some discussion on the character, alternatively.
I know you're shy and possibly married to the idea of being a lurker, but hey, I'm all about courting lurkers and getting them to come out of the woodwork, so I hope you'll consider what I've said here. You DO seem like someone I'd rather like to get to know.
no subject
I must just be incredibly fortunate that the majority of people I discuss FMA with are intelligent fans who are more interested in psycho-analyzing their favorite characters and exploring the dynamics of said characters relationships with others than fangirling in the manner you described.
Let me start off by claiming responsibility for the secret posted here and clarify two things.
1. The intent behind this secret was to inform you that there are Envy fans out there who are eager to discuss all of Envy's conflicting emotions and the complexities of his personality with as much depth and care as you have expressed a desire to do. Specifically, the individual I mentioned in the secret above. That was the message I wanted to get across.
2. My dislike of those who complain about their fandoms on FS (as well as in general), and state that they actively avoid fandom because their tastes are not catered to is genuine, but the harshness with which I addressed the issue is not. Truthfully, I would have preferred to have simply left you a comment pointing you in the direction of hieronymousb, but I considered it unlikely you would see my reply to your post in much the same way you were concerned I would not see the comment you left here.
So! I needed a "secret" as an excuse to post this in hopes of getting your attention, and it's been my experience that the best way to get a response out of someone is to provoke them. It's a vicious and tasteless tactic which shows little to no regard for your feelings. For that, I apologize.
no subject
You are correct in assuming that I made assumptions about you when I wrote what I said. These were spawned by the quoted statement above.
The one thing I will say I disagree with is your belief that one person can't change the fandom. Such a comment reminds me of every historical movement that must have started with someone saying "you know, I disagree with this" and someone else saying "Now that you mention it, so do I!" Even by just posting the secret you did, you instigated something. You stirred things up :P Really, I didn't care about Envy AT ALL until I encountered a particular portrayal of him that caused me to consider him in a different light, and that alone resulted in two Envy related fics that otherwise would not have existed. Sure, the fandom overall didn't change, but something did, and I don't think that something should be so easily disregarded.
Once again, I'm sorry to have been so inconsiderate, and if you would like, I'd be willing to repost that secret confessing that I was using FS as a means to contact you along with an apology attached. ^_^ I wanted to encourage you to interact with other members of the fandom, not chase you away.
Thank you for replying.
Much Love,
Marysia
no subject
(Anonymous) 2007-12-02 07:39 am (UTC)(link)Even by just posting the secret you did, you instigated something. You stirred things up :P
After I saw all this (and I was kind of baffled that I caused it), I realize that I possibly do have the potential to change things, just a little. Hell, I too have learned to appreciate certain characters based on fanfiction alone, and that's something that I probably need to remember. As I pointed out to hieronymousb in the comment above, fandom (including Envy fandom) can be rather daunting, I think, especially to people who are either new, or to geeky people who love to overanalyze everything in the series. It's so easy to undermine oneself. But now that I know that other people like myself exist, I don't feel so alone anymore.
So basically? Thanks. I still wish I wasn't so shy, but unfortunately, I don't think that will ever change :D