[ SECRET POST #2736 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2736 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #391.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

[(Anonymous)]

DA - We're meant to care after Thorin's death is a foregone conclusion, though. It almost feels like sloppy writing, but he wasn't a terribly sympathetic character for a great deal of the book, especially the conflict with Bilbo and the Arkenstone. But this is Tolkien and a death like this must be noble and therefore Thorin needs to be redeemed. See: Boromir.

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. Don't get me wrong, in the movies for both characters I think you're absolutely meant to care and I'd argue they're supposed to be sympathetic. In the books they're just literary devices.

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe I read this incorrectly, but f you're making a "by the same token" argument and saying that book!Boromir wasn't meant to be sympathetic in anyway, then I'm not sure I agree.

Thorin is the first in a long line of Tolkien characters that epitomize a recurring archetype. They're all cautionary stories about why placing too much value in riches, pride, and the works of your own hands over all else can lead to great downfalls. Their deeds may vary but these guys are often skilled, noble, and brave leaders of their people who have suffered in some great way. They are foil for characters like Bilbo, but despite their moral ambiguity, they are ultimately sympathetic.

Perhaps all of that isn't clear in The Hobbit -- because it (and Thorin, by extension) was the prototype. Tolkien hadn't yet even figured out all the things he wanted to do with the Dwarven race at the time of writing the book, which is why Dwarves in later works are portrayed so much more heroically. But I can at least argue that, whether or not Tolkien meant for readers to find Thorin sympathetic in The Hobbit or not -- he certainly felt that way about the character in later years. The Appendix to LOTR gave us more on Thorin's history, fleshing out his past and motivation and generally making him more consistent with the image of the Dwarves that these later works had painted -- this is what Jackson & co drew from to create the character from the film.

You might argue that we should consider The Hobbit on its own instead of pointing to later materials, but I like to view characters in light of the legendarium in entirety. And besides, it's not like this argument about whether we're meant to care will ever be substantiated by a claim from the Professor anyway; if one reader finds Thorin sympathetic and another doesn't, that is that.

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

[(Anonymous)]

No, sorry for the misunderstanding. Boromir was a more fleshed out character (and arguably more sympathetic because of this) than Thorin is, but what strikes me is the whole good intentions/warped desires + death/redemption parallels in their stories. Thorin's arc isn't as complex, which, fair enough, The Hobbit isn't as complex as LOTR. I don't doubt he's meant to be sympathetic, but I'm not sure he comes off that way for large portions of the book. Boromir doesn't really have this issue, despite his moment of weakness re: the One Ring.

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

[(Anonymous)]

I have to say that's one of my least favorite archetypes. Characters who just serve as cautionary tales without hearing their side, especially when they're used to push for the message the writer wants.

Re: spoiler for the last book/movie, though I feel like everyone knows this by now

[arcadiaego]

I think Boromir and Thorin are both more *easy* to sympathise with in the films, but I think their side is shown in the books. I mean that's why Boromir has a crap dad and a neglected brother.