[ SECRET POST #2744 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2744 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 059 secrets from Secret Submission Post #392.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

12. http://i.imgur.com/ZjqmUit.png

[sarillia]

I'm not sure dismissing a female character based on one trait that has nothing to do with her personality and choices is feminist either.

[comradesmiler]

And yet...

[a_potato]

Exactly.

[mechanosapience]

Shhh...

[logicbutton]

Maybe not, but if someone claims that a thing is feminist, the burden of proof is on them. When someone else says that they haven't met it, they aren't necessarily dismissing the thing itself entirely.

[(Anonymous)]

Who's gonna break it to the OP that most of the aren't even princesses by blood?

[iceyred]

What if they were Warrior Princesses? Would you like them then?

Is Mulan included in this loathing of yours? She wasn't a princess. And there's some debate about Pocahontas since she was a chief's daughter and not a princess. And Tiana wasn't a princess until the end of the movie. Same for Belle. And Cinderella. Rapunzel wasn't aware that she was a princess until the end, same for Aurora. Being a princess really help Snow White for most of her life.

Have I forgotten anyone? Oh, Ariel. I guess Ariel is a princess classic who knew she was a princess.

[sarillia]

For the purposes of this argument, I don't think it matters if they were aware of being a princess or not.

[(Anonymous)]

Ariel and Jasmine are the only girls that grow up in a princess lifestyle. That is, until Anna & Elsa are inducted.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not even a big Disney fan and I know that most of them aren't royal by birth. Let's see - Snow White, Sleeping Beauty and Rapunzel are. (And probably technically the girl lion from The Lion King, since one male lion does all the impregnating...)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm probably going to get flack for this, but the thing that- I guess- I find "unfeminist" about the Disney Princess fandom is that the princesses are gnerally loved more for their presentation and image than for their personalities, or for the exploration of them as dynamic characters. People do love Belle because she is a bookworm, and Ariel because of her free spirit, and so on, but it usually doesn't go much deeper than that. Most of the fanworks with the princesses seems to come in creating fanart of them in different costumes. There is usually little dialogue found in fanworks of Disney princesses. The love they inspire over other female characters in media feeds into the idea that women and their image are what people find the most engaging.

[sarillia]

I think this is fair. I have issues with the way the characters are marketed even if I love the characters themselves (though they are still far from flawless).

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah I can see what you're saying because there is that aspect of fandom. I mean it's Disney fandom, and Disney more then any other studio always has the goal of making super cute, super marketable, and super appealing designs (they may not always achieve it and individual opinions will vary, but this is the goal.) So there are a number of people who are less concerned about personality and more into making something pretty and shiny, and in the case of some people, sexy.

But that's also why I dislike a lot of popular Disney fanwork. I think there is good stuff out there and there are people who pay attention to personality, but it's not always the popular stuff so you have to dig for it.

[sabotabby]

Also, all of the little girls in sweatshops making princess shit for Disney. Pretty sure that's still a thing that happens.

[(Anonymous)]

While I do think it's a problem if princesses are the only media little girls ever have, I don't think princess stories are inherently not feminist.

And yeah, not all the women marketed as princesses truly are in the Disney line. I'd say Disney has had truly great female characters and truly terrible ones. Can there still be progress? Sure. Does that mean everything that came before was bad? Heck no.

And I'd take Disney any day over animation studios that refuse to make stories about women at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Not gonna bite.

...but not all of them are "by blood"?

[nyxelestia]

Pocahontas and Mulan never really were princesses and never became princesses, Tiana, Belle, and Cinderalla weren't born princesses, and Rapunzel and Aurora didn't even know they were princesses until the end of their movies.

And most of the meta I've read has been about how not feminist they are...and when they do argue for feminist viewpoints, I have yet to see anyone attempt to imply that they are feminist or worthwhile specifically because they are princesses. If anything, some seemed to argue for that viewpoint in spite of the fact they're princesses.

Re: ...but not all of them are "by blood"?

[sarillia]

You're the second person to point out that several of them didn't know they were princesses. I don't understand why that's a counterargument here. Can you explain?

[ibbity]

I wish people would just recognize that something marketed at kids isn't really gonna be all that nuanced and dedicated to The Issues so much as it is gonna focus on the sparklies and cool magic because that's what kids are into. And that that is OKAY. On the other hand, I can sort of feel you because I also get tired of everything being princess this and princess that to the extent that it seems like princess crap is ALL that's being marketed these days.

[(Anonymous)]

On the other hand, I can sort of feel you because I also get tired of everything being princess this and princess that to the extent that it seems like princess crap is ALL that's being marketed these days.

My main problem with this is that it always seems to be stuff marketed at girls that get these types of complaints.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't call it feminist but Disney is the only studio I see that specifically cares about making movies about girls. All the princesses are different from each other. And their movies progress for the time. If they want to sprinkle the title of princess and a few sparkly dresses on top of that I'll live. It's not like they only make princess movies.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd argue that what's feminist is the fact that almost all of them accomplish things, take initiative, and have goals and dreams of their own DESPITE being pigeonholed by their role in society.

I mean, take Jasmine. She's being pressured into a marriage she doesn't really want, and instead of just going along with it, she objects to her father, tries to run away, and in the end gets her father to change the entire system to allow the princess to marry whomever SHE chooses.

Not too bad for a princess.

[(Anonymous)]

Your mom is a feminist.

Actually, no. She came into contact with semen to have you, so there for she's PROBLEMATIC. Well, your biological mother. If you were adopted then I guess that's okay (unless she's with a man penis).

Is feminism inherently anti-monarchial/anti-aristocratic?

[(Anonymous)]

You can think women and men should be equal and still think some men and women are superior because of their blood/birth. It's not very popular these days, at least not officially, but I don't think it's an inherent contradiction.

Most of the princes in those same movies are even more pigeonholed to a role determined by blood.

So -- the royalty obsession is a real critique, and the feminism or lack thereof of the princesses can be debated, but I think you're mixing up two not necessarily related things.