fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2789 ]

[ SECRET POST #2789 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2789 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Captain America]

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04.

[The Thrilling Adventure Hour, Beyond Belief]

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05. [SPOILERS for Walking Dead]

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06. [SPOILERS for Fangirl]

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07. [SPOILERS for Orange is the New Black]

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08. [SPOILERS for TWDG]

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09. [WARNING for suicide]

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10. [WARNING for abuse, (possibly?) rape]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #398.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - stock photo ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

RANT AHOY! I just had to yell about this.

God fucking dammit why can't I find a decent romance novel to read?

In this latest one, the hero attempts to manipulate the heroine (via mind control) into sex, and then he's all like: "It was worth a try. You enjoyed it."

*throws book across the room with violent force*

I just. What the fuck. What the actual fuck. All I want is something nice and happy and pleasant to read. How is this romantic? Am I missing something? And this wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't a recurrent thing in COUNTLESS stories and movies and novels.

You know, it's fine if other people like to read about "bad boy" heroes or whatever, but to me - that kind of smug arrogance in these characters is the biggest turn-off. Doesn't matter how many times the author talks about the guy's "sexiness", the instant he disrespects the heroine, he stops being a hero in my eyes.

For context - this guy is compared to a villian, who murdered a busload of kids. "Well, at least he's not a child-murdering serial killer!" Sure, he's a smug, sexist, violent, arrogant, insecure sack of shit, but at least he doesn't murder eight-year olds! He only murders adults!

And then they bring out the Freudian excuse like he wasn't loved enough as a kid or whatever, and that's why he's an asshole. You know what, fuck that. I don't care about his backstory. Plenty of people have shitty awful lives and they DON'T use it as an excuse to act like assholes.

"But the heroine can chaaaaange him!" Okay, I get that that's some people's fantasy, but it's not mine. I can't believe it. I simply cannot believe it. In my experience, people like that don't change, they just continue to repeat the same patterns of behaviour and blame everyone around them for their problems instead of taking some goddamn responsibility. To me, it just makes the so-called "hero" look like an immature manchild.

Even in stories where they aren't just blatant rapists and murderers, there's this sort of low-level sexism that really pisses me off. Like this "pat-the-heroine-on-the-head" thing. "There, there, dear. the adults are talking you don't really know what you want so let me tell you."

Frankly, I'm insulted by how low the bar is set. All I want is to read a story that is actually ROMANTIC. That delivers a believable happy ending. And where the hero isn't practically a villian, and treats the heroine with mutual respect. Isn't that too much to ask?

On a broader note, I'm sick of "dark and gritty" antiheroes in stories generally. Who said cynicism was more mature? I've had enough of cynicism.

Where are the heroes like Atticus Finch or Steve Rogers? I want to read more about them. And who said that was boring, anyway? It's far more inspiring to read about someone trying their hardest to do the right thing in a shitty world. They can still have tragic backstories and colorful pasts without being awful themselves.

Ugh. I might have to write a novel myself, since I can't find anything decent to read.

that's actually not a bad motivator for writing

good luck!

thanks!

if you can't find it, write it!

I really have nothing to add but PREACH. I am the biggest sucker for paranormal romance, but I had to give up on the entire genre - I'm not kidding, every book in it - because they were all the same thing: Abusive a manly-man with a sob story and the spunky "strong" heroine who lets him consistently disrespect her, and this is supposed to be titillating. It shows up in gay romance, too, in manga, in movies, it's fucking everywhere. There's so little of the type of romance that I consider romantic - two people don't treat each other like shit, and a relationship grows from that.

I have a quote in regards to romance novel male love interests (paranormal, but I think it applies to them all): "I had this issue with a couple of preternatural romances that were sent to me for review in that the protagonists (also werewolves, come to that) weren't actually strong men. They were jerks. Aggressive, domineering jerks. Not even "Oooh, I can imagine being swept off my feet by this confident, competent man," types, but actual "If my daughter was dating one of these guys, I wouldn't wait for her father to load the shotgun, I'd go after them myself" types. It's like our culture no longer knows how to recognize masculinity anymore and is getting it confused with barbarity."

I think this explains a lot. Sort of like people think giving a female character some martial arts skills and a potty mouth makes her "strong". Lot of writers don't understand that strength doesn't mean being violent or an asshole. Steve Rogers is sixty times stronger and more interesting than most of these romance novel bastards any day.

SA

yeah, that is really weird. another thing i've noticed - specifically in the paranormal genre - is how a lot of the heroines are "strong" in the sense that they go around kicking ass and swearing... but they're not actually "strong" in character?

and in a way, the heroes aren't "strong" either - at least, they come across as really insecure and pathetic to me.

two people don't treat each other like shit, and a relationship grows from that.
hahaha, you'd think this wouldn't be hard to find! it is so WEIRD.

it seriously sucks that you had to give up on a whole genre, though. :( i've had one or two faves ruined by oversaturation of a particular theme (like horror.)

Sort of like people think giving a female character some martial arts skills and a potty mouth makes her "strong"

That right there sums up my view of Strong Female Characters (tm). Too bad I get shot down so often when I bring up the idea that these characters aren't automatically all that great. It's unfortunate that women so often set the bar so low for who they idolize and men so often fail to see how they're being manipulated.

Jesus Christ, calm down. What the fuck section are you LOOKING in? Want to read about two adults falling in love mutually and with 'enthusiastic consent'? Elizabeth Lowell and Jane Ann Krentz are your go-to writers.

JAK gets a little formulaic - okay, these days, a lot - but she's a solid writer and her female protagonists aren't just there to be worshipped/raped by the male protagonist. It's more like 'teaming up' kind of deals, and she's very equal in sexual encounters.

Elizabeth Lowell gets very long winded sometimes - expect long, involved lessons in, for example, ancient Mayans. But she also writes equality between the sexes extremely well, tho her male protagonists tend to be of the tall, dark variety.

What you might want to do is not look for a book where the point is romance/sex/fucking, but for a book with romance in it, in addition to a plot.

I've been reading since I was 11 years old, and for every good writer I find, I slog through about a dozen wannabes. The good writers are out there, you just have to find them. In today's market, tho, it's getting ridiculously hard. Twilight and Fifty Shades has really brought the quality of what's publishable down, a lot.

Anne Stuart is another favorite, because so much of what she writes hits my kinks so hard. But you probably shouldn't - her ICE series is one of my favorites but good goddamn, they all have consent issues. And they all have one thing in common, a woman has to depend on a mysterious and cold-blooded killer in order to survive people trying to kill her, but I like that because I have strong submissive instincts given the right situation.

well, I did say it was a rant!

i've read one too many of these books. (the book in question was on a list of recommended classics...)

hell, i don't even mind BDSM dynamics in my fiction, it's just that... that's almost the "default" dynamic in a lot of these books? like there's an unequal power dynamic, and it's assumed that that's ideal and romantic and everyone will like it. and that bothers me. while i'm sure other people can ignore the consent issues, it seriously creeps me out.

thanks for the recs, though. i'll check them out.

ayrt

A lot of these books being put out right now are along the lines of 50 Shades. You know, something gets popular and suddenly there are a hundred other books that somehow take the fanon of the first book, or the stereotypes of it, and basically amplify the fuck out of them, thinking if they just keep hitting those points, women (because we're sheep or something) will just eat it all up with a giant spoon and all those horrible writers will get book deals.

But you said the book you were talking about is a 'classic'? Huh? What's the copyright year?

AYRT

2012. So pretty recent. The author is Nalini Singh, and she was recced as being pretty good. I must admit the book is readable and the writing enjoyable... it's just a shame I don't like the relationship dynamics.

ayrt

Do you mind if I ask what you're looking for in a book?

I agree, writing can be good but if the relationship dynamic doesn't work for you, it's not going to be good.

AYRT

Something funny and lighthearted. I tend to like stuff that's got a 'fairytale' or 'out-of-time' sort of feel. Some of my favourite films to watch when I'm sick are stuff like The Grand Budapest Hotel, Chocolat and Amelie. I was raised on a lot of historical stuff - Austen, Bronte, Agatha Christie, etc. - and I also enjoy reading P.G. Wodehouse.

A lot of what you like is a bit "above my pay grade" anon. But if you like funny and lighthearted, and you're looking for a 'romance', I'd definitely rec Jennifer Crusie to you. She's some prof that wrote a 'romance novel' back in the 90s for some class or other and found she was very good at it. She's very comedic with her protags (very much along the lines of Bringing Up Baby), she tends to focus on small town dynamics and her female characters are refreshingly mature, as are her male characters. Dogs feature in her books, and real life situations. Nothing paranormal, at least not when I was reading her. The very first book I read from her was part of a line from Harlequin, and even then, I could tell her writing was exceptional. Give it a go, if you think you'd like her. :)

Well, I can't turn down small-towns, comedy, and dogs!

Thank you very much for the rec! :)

DA

ICE!!! Have you read the other books in the series? I've been thinking about reading her books, but I don't know if they're...eh...okay...?

Your opinion?

It depends on what you're looking for...? If you don't have the same issues as some of the other anons and non-anons have with, er, maledom and some sketchy consent, then I'd rec the Ice series, definitely.

#1 Black Ice, and #3 Blue Ice, tie for my favorite. Black Ice takes place in Europe and Blue Ice takes place in LA and Japan. The sex isn't protracted or gratuitous or coarse, but there's elements of dom/sub, and the male protag of #1 and the female protag of #3 are 'broken' in some way.

#2 is very good as well, just doesn't hold up as well to 1 and 3 for me. I liked the male protag less there. 4 and 5 are also good but they didn't hold me the way the first three did. Characters from all the books are connected and make appearances in most of the books. I haven't read 6 but I might if I can get through GoT this year. We'll see.

Her other books are just as good too. She's a very good writer overall, her language is simple and her narrative flows. She doesn't get bogged down in description and her male characters are never immediately and overwhelmingly captivated by the female protags. It's more of an niggling, under-the-radar attraction despite their not wanting to be attracted.

Oh and I also wished I'd mention my ongoing love for Suzanne Brockmann! She started out very simply nearly 20 years ago about a team of Navy SEALS and it has branched out into this amazing world filled with manly men, intelligent women and consenting relationships EVERYWHERE. What's so special about her books is that she includes all kinds of races, body types, socio-economic backgrounds, and sexual orientations in her series. One male protag is half Vietnamese, half African American and the female is Irish white and deaf. Another female protag is a plus-size gal. One male is Indian. Yet another female is a mixed race FBI sniper named Lyssa who is very awesome. Another great character who recurs through most of the books is a gay FBI agent who isn't a stereotype, and he gets not one but two romances, the second of which is featured through at least 3 books before they get their own. While the gay romance has very little physical description beyond initial kisses, I think it has to do with the fact that he's based on the writer's gay son and mothers just can't go there. :) Anyway, they're full of consenting adults in very hot situations (in and out of bed). And who they are, their size and color and whatever, are never THE POINT but just a descriptor. But she never ignores it. If that makes sense. Anyway, I'd dive into those as well, if you can. You won't be sorry. :)

DA says thanks for the recs!

ayrt

:) glad to help. I hope you like some of them. They've all been writing for years.

Let the Smart Bitches guide you, they hate all that mess: http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/

They even have their own book about the genre that I'm reading right now, lots of fun: http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Heaving-Bosoms-Bitches-Romance-ebook/dp/B001NLL66M/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408767795&sr=1-1&keywords=beyond+heaving+bosoms

AYRT

THANK YOU SO MUCH. LET ME LOVE YOU!

I'm reading some of the F and DNF reviews right now and cackling.

Hahaha, those are the best.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #2789 ]

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