[ SECRET POST #2823 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2823 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 018 secrets from Secret Submission Post #403.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[nayance]

This post was the first I saw that implied calling a female character a Mary Sue was misogynistic and anti-feminist. Since then I've seen a buttload of text posts that regurgitated the same sentiment, that female character wish fulfillment was NECESSARY and IMPORTANT (which, whatever, but call it what it is and don't dress it up as anything more than that), and that the mere concept of Mary Sues is misogynistic and horrible...

Which is stupid. An over the top character can be pulled off if there are appropriate consequences, and if the writer is good enough. I've seen it done with both male and female characters, as have I see Mary Sue style over-the-top plots be done well.

Having a stupidly overpowered character who faces no consequences for their bullshit, and who defies the set rules of the universe JUST BECAUSE, and who doesn't exist as part of the plot but rather has the plot exist before them... - all that existed before someone put a name to it, and it will still exist with characters of both genders even if people start saying the use of that term is misogynistic.

I do think the backlash against the Mary Sue concept is stupid, especially when it starts being framed as a feminist issue where you'll TOTALLY LOVE A DUDE IF HE'S DOING IT BUT YOU HATE OVERPOWERED, POORLY WRITTEN WOMEN, HDU, which... it isn't. Bad writing is bad writing, and shitty characters are just shitty, but obviously everything that ever exists has to be a slight against women or something stupid like that.

As for whether that particular picture is Mary Sue-ish, I can't really say; everyone has pretty ridiculous outfits in that series, and I'd be more inclined to believe it was just someone wanting to personalize their avatar and nothing more than that.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with you about the "feminist/empowerment" angle there. I remember reading that and thinking "but a character that the world revolves around who gets everything handed to them is not empowering. They're actually weak because they get what they want to much. A real challenge is going to knock them over!"

It's like...I dunno.. a spoiled little child who gets everything she wants when she screams. She's not empowered, she's just kinda bratty.

[nayance]

Pretty much.

I feel the same way about characters who are irrationally shat on. This girl I used to RP with had a character who lost her family and then went into foster care and was abused by literally everyone she met... for literally no reason. And she had super-special-awesome powers that weren't canon compatible. So even if the world wasn't revolving around her in a positive way, it was still all about her. ISN'T THAT EMPOWERING?

[(Anonymous)]

Ah yes, when your character's whole identity is based around being a victim. So empowering Like I hate the whole "thou shalt not have your character have a tragic background at all" but I hate those types too because they're so annoying.

[(Anonymous)]

The problem I see is that it's almost exclusively pointed out with female characters who are typically written by young teenaged girls. I have never in my life seen this lobbed at young men doing the same thing until recently. And it's still nowhere near as ugly and visceral as how Mary Sues are treated.

IMO, mary Sues are a healthy part of a growing girl. We all have wish fulfillment fantasies like that, and it DOES make one feel powerful to feel like the world revolves around you.

I guess, to frame it like this...

The men falling at their feet is because society dictates that a woman's worth is in her looks and whether or not she can get a man. Don't try to dance around it, a woman is still listed in an article as a mother and wife if at all possible while a new article about a man can actually avoid the topic of his love life. So therefore, the Mary Sue, the idealized self, is going to thus be Worth Something.

All those skills? Well, you Can't Just Be Pretty. Again, a thing we learn in school is that while girls do have to be pretty and desirable (hence Sues being the prettiest EVAR), we also have to be good for something. Otherwise it means nothing. And while this isn't particularly a gendered practice, combined with the above, well. you get it.

The lack of consequences, I've found, tends to come from the belief that if you're powerful enough, nothing can touch you. Which kind of actually does exist. It takes a lot to bring down the proverbial giants of today--corporations, rich people, basically anyone who would be a hassle to take down and it requires a lot to go after.

Basically, there's a lot of factors that DO make Mary Sues a feminist issue, just not in the way you'd think. It's more in the reasons why girls have these specific wish fulfillments and idealized visions of what a woman should be that's so impossible and poorly written. Because a lot of those thoughts stem from sexism and a lot of Mary Sues come about during an age in which girls are going to especially be noticing these things however unconsciously.

I could ramble on more to discuss certain aspects of the psychology behind them, but TLDR, what's sexist and misogynistic in relation to the Mary Sue discussion is simply dismissing it as mere bad writing and wish fulfillment instead of examining and questioning what causes this to be female wish fulfillment and how we can change that.

[(Anonymous)]

This post is amazing; thank you.

[(Anonymous)]

You're quite welcome!

[(Anonymous)]

Also the reaction people tend to show to a character they think is a Mary Sue is worth looking at

I mean some of the mockery writers get for writing Sues can be really vicious. It always puzzles me because, we know that these writers are young, do we really expect them to get it right the first time? Or the second?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. I've noticed it being much more vicious toward girls than boys.