[ SECRET POST #2841 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2841 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 039 secrets from Secret Submission Post #406.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

How about bashing the writers.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

OP clearly recognizes that these female characters suck because the writers can't develop them, yet OP insists on bashing the characters themselves? Instead of going on about "THIS CHARACTER IS TERRIBLE AND I HATE HER" go on about "THIS CHARACTER IS BADLY WRITTEN AND SHAME ON THE WRITER[S]" - there's a huge difference.

[(Anonymous)]

Not everyone enjoys going meta about their shows. There's nothing wrong with hating a character. On the other hand, there is something kind you f disturbing about jumping up and down on a real person because you don't there nk a character is good. Especially of we're talking about a show.

[(Anonymous)]

Whoa, slow down there, cowboy. Who's getting "jumped up and down on"? Since when is critiquing bad writing considered attacking a real person?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, we must have different definitions of the word "bash.*

[(Anonymous)]

Ah, fair. I see where you're coming from then and apologize. I've often seen people use "bash" to describe everything from flaming vitriol to simple relaxed critique so I've gotten in the habit of assuming it covers everything but it doesn't, you're right.

[(Anonymous)]

boy that de-escalated quickly

[(Anonymous)]

I know. Disappointing, isn't it?

[(Anonymous)]

They're literally a fictional character lol. So by disliking the character itself, that's basically the same as disliking the writers. These aren't real people that will get their feelings hurt over people misattributing the blame. I totally hate female characters that were badly written. I love the actresses that do the best with what they can.
I don't really get your point other than semantics?
I might be overestimating the secret maker's intelligence idk. =/ I just like to think that they would understand it and were expressing distaste at the alienating aspects but who knows.

[(Anonymous)]

How about both. When someone loves a character, nobody says "Don't praise the character, praise the writers."

[(Anonymous)]

... IDK about you but I see that all the time. Maybe not the first part of that sentence but I've seen plenty of writers praised for good complex character development and writing.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I often see people praising writers for writing great characters so that's probably why nobody says that.

[(Anonymous)]

But when they talk about how much they love the character, they're never told to stop doing that and praise the writer instead.

[ibbity]

You can dislike a trope while also realizing that the people who write the trope are being stupid, you know. Also p. sure that most people who complain about bad characterization are aware that the characters are badly characterized because they were written that way.

[(Anonymous)]

I could but it always makes me a bit uncomfortable to bash real people. I honestly don't get why people are more comfortable bashing a real person with feelings rather than a fictional character. I might talk about the problems with the character by saying, "I think this scene makes her look incompetent or something." But I really dislike saying that writers are sexist or this or that about them because I don't KNOW them. And I don't know if some of the things they put in were really what they wanted or concessions to editors/studios.

A character isn't real -- doesn't have any feelings to hurt.

OP above

[(Anonymous)]

sorry, should have noted that the post above (mine) is the OP

Re: OP above

[(Anonymous)]

OP again

To expand on this a bit:

It always makes me really uncomfortable to see George Lucas called racist because of Jar Jar Binks. I get WHY people don't like Jar Jar. I really do. But I feel like Lucas tried to reach out to black actors and that his mistakes were probably borne of his love of old serials more than out of any desire to mock black people.

So I honestly prefer it when people say, "I hate Jar Jar Binks because he's so annoying and he reminds me of racist caricatures" rather than "George Lucas is racist for how he wrote Jar Jar Binks."

Do you get what I mean?

Re: OP above

[(Anonymous)]

Totally off topic but not all racism is born from hatred; lots of it is ignorance. George Lucas is racist because he perpetuated a bunch of nasty stereotypes about black people via an annoying character, but that doesn't automatically mean he hates black people.

[(Anonymous)]

I think there's a right and wrong way to do it though. (And as pointed out, bashing was not the correct word to use here and I should not have used it)... I think it's fair to critique writing, and sexist overused tropes. Things don't go away by ignoring it, and I doubt anyone is contacting any writers directly and saying "YOU SUCK" or anything. But venting about how the trope over tired, overused, and sexist isn't bashing the writer. Personal attacks, calling the writer a terrible person, etc... yeah, not cool. Do not recommend. But redirecting the frustration to explore WHY you dislike the tropes, talking about how the writing itself is sexist and wrong (without personal attacks), I think are all good and productive.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I guess I just don't see what the big difference is between:

"I don't like X -- she's a flat character that's in it purely for the token romance aspect without any development."

vs.

"I wish the writers wouldn't use the token romance trope so much and would flesh out the female characters more."

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

There isn't one. The second just gives someone to blame, which is all the rage.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

I think the big difference, to me, is the expected fandom response to it. I mean, we all are in fandom here, and I presume a lot of us make fanfic or fanart, or at least talk about what we'd like to see happen to the characters.

If you say, 'I don't like character X, she's a vapid romantic stereotype,' I'd expect you to marginalize character X, putting her aside in favor of the characters you like more. Depending on the circumstances, that might entail killing them off or otherwise causing bad things to them in your fanwork, or it might just entail ignoring them entirely.

If you say, 'I don't like what the writers have done with character X, they're treating her like a vapid romantic stereotype,' that implies there could be something salvageable about her. From someone taking this tack, I'd expect to see fanwork that might attempt to redeem her. The damsel in distress gets her own adventures and gets to save herself. The background love interest is seen at her own job, which it turns out is a dramatic one she's surprisingly good at. The faux action girl gets to actually save the day and show off her skills without getting taken hostage by the villain. Even if she doesn't end up the focus of your stories, she might show up in a supporting role without the flaws she's subjected to by her canon treatment.

Fandom is very frequently transformative. People often feel they can do better than the writers, and sometimes they're right. Not blaming the characters for the failings of the author is one of the key steps in transforming them sometimes.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

This is a really good point that I hadn't considered - the difference between seeing a character as bad and seeing a character as badly handled, but having potential. Well put.

Re: OP

[diet_poison]

Chiming in to say, I really love fic like this - fleshing out characters we don't see as much of in canon and imagining other aspects of their lives.

[(Anonymous)]

This exactly.