fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2856 ]

I am not supporting Anti-Zoe or Anti-Anita. I actually like Zoe Quinn and have no problem with her. I am supporting #Gamergate, a broad discussion of many issues in gaming.

You insisting that a huge discussion among gamers must be how you define it is ridiculous. You insisting that people of color, women, and LGBT people only support it out of spite or hatred is ridiculous--and rather offensive.

You assume that you know better than someone their motives and emotions. You assume that you know more about a discussion than people who actually take part in it.

That's pretty incomprehensible behavior to me.

I didn't say people of color supported out of spite, I said YOU did, because that's what you just wrote. "I support GamerGate because I'm sick of feminists painting gamers" is what you wrote. So you support the vile bullshit of GG—which is where the death and rape threats and overwhelming misogyny is coming from—out of spite. If there is some other reason you support them, feel free to explain.

You hear PoC, women, LGBT+, etc talk about how they're sick of being erased, and you repaint that to "supported out of spite"?

No wonder so many people think feminism is the problem.

I could sympathize with that if you had simply said you don't align with gamer feminists, but you said you're backing people issuing death/rape threats and claiming that their gaming experienced is being ruined by women and queer people, IE. choosing a side much worse than the feminists when you could choose neither.

Edited 2014-10-29 04:41 (UTC)

I could sympathize with that if you had simply said you don't align with gamer feminists

Nice tone argument. You should either have sympathy for us for being erased, or you shouldn't, but the wrongness of our erasure is not dependent on our actions or behavior. In other words, even if we are/were the biggest assholes alive, that does not make erasing us okay.

but you said you're backing people issuing death/rape threats

Where have I said that? I think I have specifically said several times that nothing justifies death threats or any kind of threats. By YOUR logic, let me ask you this: why are YOU backing people issueing death/rape threats? Because by YOUR logic, if one member of a huge group sends a threat, they all are, and that means anyone who supports that group supports the threats.

choosing a side much worse than the feminists when you could choose neither.

I'm choosing a side that allows me to dialogue about issues in gaming that I'm interested in.

claiming that their gaming experienced is being ruined by women and queer people

I think we've gone over your whole "if one member of a group does, they all do!" illogic a few paragraphs up. Do I really need to refute this too?

I didn't say I didn't have sympathy for erasure, or queer people and WOC, I said I don't have sympathy for your choice in this debate.

I think I have specifically said several times that nothing justifies death threats or any kind of threats.

But that's kind of the WHOLE ISSUE I and most people have with the GamerGaters. It is being overwhelmingly used as an excuse to attack women and whine about how "SJWs" have ruined gaming. They have no leg to stand on against Anita or Zoe. It is very transparently an excuse to rail against women refusing to be excluded from their boys-will-be-boys culture.

I'm choosing a side that allows me to dialogue about issues in gaming that I'm interested in.

The Gamergate movement, as whole, does not give a shit about women or POC. That's kind of the whole point.

Because by YOUR logic, if one member of a huge group sends a threat, they all are,

They're not all issuing death/rape threats, but the sentiment of the movement very much supports it. I'm very curious who you're following/reading among GGers who is making pro-women, pro-queer arguments?

eta: my apologies for the comment misfires; I blame captcha.

But that's kind of the WHOLE ISSUE I and most people have with the GamerGaters. It is being overwhelmingly used as an excuse to attack women and whine about how "SJWs" have ruined gaming.

No, it's about many things. I don't agree with everything this writer has said about it, but he lists the issues Gamergate covers and dialogues on pretty succinctly: http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting

whine about how "SJWs" have ruined gaming.

Online, as a vocal queer WoC gamer, I have been faced with harassment, death threats, rape threats, insults, hate, been accused of awful things. None of this was by people I was gaming with. Rather, it came from social justice activists who use bullying and harassment on people they disagree with--aka, the kind of social justice activists that are considered "SJW"s. I don't think they have ruined gaming, but I do think they have badly damaged the online social justice sphere.

Oh, sorry, was I whining? Queer WoC being bullied so badly they no longer feel safe blogging about issues they face--man, what a whiny pissbaby I am.

The Gamergate movement, as whole, does not give a shit about women or POC. That's kind of the whole point.

If you have any evidence for that broad and sweeping generalization, I'd love to hear it.

They're not all issuing death/rape threats, but the sentiment of the movement very much supports it.

Funny, I'd say the sentiments the online SJ movement uses supports issuing death/rape threats pretty well too, based on how many have used SJ principles to justify doing such things. But I guess you'll be arguing that people shouldn't be feminists because of that?

Listen, I'm sorry that you had to go through such horrible treatment. I know how cliquish and insensitive a lot of folks can be. But please consider that the movement you've joined was spawned from a smear campaign against Zoe Quinn, and the GG hashtag started when Alec Baldwin posted conspiracy theory videos on false reports of Quinn's sexual escapades. A lot of folks who have never meant you harm have been hurt by people who were flying the GG banner, and some have even quit their jobs over the sheer volume of harassment they received. Just because the circles you travel in have "moved beyond" the Quinnspiracy doesn't mean that the unsavory elements of GG have, or that they've stopped existing. Just go to 8chan or the GG board on Reddit if you don't believe me. I guarantee that there are a lot of people on "your side" who'd be just as happy to rip you apart as those SJWs who hurt you the second you deviate from their narrative and stop being a good little supporter of the cause.

I know how cliquish and insensitive a lot of folks can be.

No, don't even. "get raped" "go kill yourself you **** scum" are not "cliquish" or "insensitive".

A lot of folks who have never meant you harm have been hurt by people who were flying the GG banner, and some have even quit their jobs over the sheer volume of harassment they received.

You can say this about feminism too. People under the feminist banner have hurt a lot of people too. And Gamergate people have lost their jobs over this too.

Just because the circles you travel in have "moved beyond" the Quinnspiracy doesn't mean that the unsavory elements of GG have

I haven't moved beyond the Quinnspiracy. I have no difficulty believing that men in the gaming industry would sexually exploit a vulnerable woman and then cover their asses.

I guarantee that there are a lot of people on "your side" who'd be just as happy to rip you apart as those SJWs who hurt you the second you deviate from their narrative and stop being a good little supporter of the cause.

Those people on "my side" are gamers, and they've never given me any shit or "ripped me apart" even though I've ran a queer guild on one of the most male-heavy MMOs on the net for some time, long before Gamergate.

sa:

And I find it really funny that a bunch of "mountain-dew swilling, fedora-wearing white misogynistic dudebros" have treated me with more respect and given me far less shit over anything than the feminists and SJ activists who are ~fighting for people like me~ (by sending me death and rape threats every time I open my mouth, but hey, what do I know, I'm just a brainless little spite-filled puppet right?)

Possibly because the dudebros aren't under pressure from rape and death threats. Their way of life -- where they're the kings of the world, sure, that's under threat --but when people (*feminists* as you call them) are upset about your open support of rape-apologists (or rape-threat apologists) it behooves you to know the difference.

But according to the feminists and social justice activists, *I* am a dudebro. And I get rape and death threats all the time. So what does that tell you? How is a queer woc a king of the world? Huh, that doesn't seem to describe my way of life at all.

(And that's not even to go into all the gamergaters that get death and rape threats).

it behooves you to know the difference.

What difference are you speaking about?

DA but do you people even listen to your own double standards? One second, you're "Nothing justifies rape/death threats" but when someone gets rape/death threats by women, it's because "they are under such ~pressure~ unlike those evil dudebros so them issuing rape/death threats is not such a big deal!".

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(Anonymous) - 2014-11-09 01:16 (UTC) - Expand

I'm genuinely curious: in what feminist community did you encounter rape and death threats because you're an outspoken WoC? I'm not being facetious, I just want to know who'd do something like that, because it seems counter to pretty much every community I've watched apart from the TERFs. Was it on tumblr?

On Tumblr, on Livejournal, and on a certain other feminist community I'm not going to specify.

I just want to know who'd do something like that, because it seems counter to pretty much every community I've watched apart from the TERFs.

And indeed, for the most part, it is. I've been heavily active in social justice discussions since 2007. A huge amount of people involved in SJ are wonderful people. There are lots of discussions in SJ communities that are useful and worthwhile and never have anything vile said. The threats and harassment are only a tiny portion of the overall interactions.

No group is homogenous and the sort of people that send threats and are vile and hateful toward anyone with a dissenting opinion are in the minority--both in SJ circles and in gaming circles.

I recognize that and that's why I remain friends with feminists and don't say things like "all feminists are scum" or think that they're my enemy.

It would be nice if people would realize that that kind of thinking--"everyone who's X is scum" "Everyone who's X is the same"--is unrealistic and a dangerous cognitive bias, and would avoid falling into it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people on any side seem to fall into that rhetoric.

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(Anonymous) - 2014-10-29 20:21 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-10-29 21:25 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-10-29 23:02 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-11-09 01:26 (UTC) - Expand

Except there wasn't any sexual exploitation, because the alleged exchange of sex for reviews never happened. This has been debunked multiple times. There was no review written, and the only thing the journalist wrote about her was mentioning her in a list of indie game devs before Gjoni alleges their relationship started. If you read the actual tweets that Zoe has written herself, she doesn't sound like a victim who's grateful that GG came to her defense in her time of need - she's extraordinarily pissed off that people won't stop harassing her. She's being driven to the end of her rope by the guys at GG who are constantly harassing her. You'd have to have extremely poor reading comprehension to believe that she was sexually exploited. Don't believe me? Read her own words yourself: https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy

Frankly, the more that you write, the less I believe you, and that you are who you say you are. I'm sorry if I'm wrong and you ARE who you say you are, and I hope you get help and find a better group of friends than the dudebros at gamergate, but I guarantee you that the dudebros will only be polite and civil to you as long as you're useful to them as a shield against criticism.

Except there wasn't any sexual exploitation, because the alleged exchange of sex for reviews never happened. This has been debunked multiple times.

You're falling into some logical fallacy or other that people love to quote. Zoe Quinn allegedly slept with 5 different men while in a relationship with her ex--the allegation that her boss had a relationship with her is the most ethically disturbing, not the Kotaku journalist; and her relationship with or lack of with the Kotaku journalist does not negate the fact that her boss may have abused his power against her.

If you read the actual tweets that Zoe has written herself, she doesn't sound like a victim who's grateful that GG came to her defense in her time of need

Yeah? And what would you expect her to say? If she said "I slept with my boss" she knows she'd be vilified far worse--and many of the people supporting her now would drop that support, even if they claim to be feminist.

Frankly, the more that you write, the less I believe you, and that you are who you say you are.

I don't agree with you, so I must be a white cis straight rich dude. Aka, the whole reason #notyourshield took off--because so many feminists and social justice activists are constantly erasing queer, PoC, women, disabled, etc when we disagree with their statements or don't let ourselves be used as a prop for their ideas.

What part of my identity do you think I'm lying about? Gonna come at me with some racist "you sound white" bullshit next?

I guarantee you that the dudebros will only be polite and civil to you as long as you're useful to them as a shield against criticism.

Wow, so they're just like feminists then?

a better group of friends than the dudebros at gamergate

Reminding me once more why #notyourshield is a great thing since so many slime want to act as if everyone involved in gamergate is dudebro.

I'm more inclined to believe Zoe if she comes out and says it one way or the other. I don't think she'd be gathering evidence against a movement that's trying to "protect" her. When you're dealing with a victim of sexual abuse, you need to think about what the victim wants first and foremost. She's made it clear that even if it does come out that she was sexually abused, the last thing she'd want is Gamergate.

These allegations of sex also didn't come from her, but from her ex-boyfriend, who has been working with Gamergate from the start. He is clearly using these alleged relationships as a means to discredit her, by saying that she somehow slept her way to the top. Eron did not have Zoe's best interests at heart when he posted his rant. I'm also extremely doubtful about your claims that GG is coming to her defense when it doesn't focus on the guys who Zoe supposedly had a relationship with, and instead phone calls her family to tell them that she's a "whore."

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(Anonymous) - 2014-10-29 20:36 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2014-10-29 20:41 (UTC) - Expand

different anonymous.

your comment is exactly why i, not only call myself a feminist anymore, but i'm extremely DONE with the bullshit social justice circles in fandom that are literally trying to police everything and everyone.

although i'm not part of the spectrum, i'm still a WOC who has been very much abused by feminists (young and old alike).

and if anyone tries to gaslight me, fuck you and the cactus you rode on.

I have no doubt that people have bullied you in the name of SJWism. I still don't understand how this has brought you to the conclusion that the GamerGaters are an accepting and women/queer positive group.

I have no doubt that people have bullied you in the name of SJWism. I still don't understand how this has brought you to the conclusion that the GamerGaters are an accepting and women/queer positive group.

I have stated that I, as a queer WoC, have been treated better by gamers (the supposedly evil, white, misogynistic dudebros) than by feminists and social justice activists. That's not a conclusion--that is literally a recounting of my experiences. You pretending confusion when queer PoC talk about the bullying and harassment they've experienced in fandom does you no credit.

I'm not talking about gamers vs. feminists, I'm talking about specifically GamerGaters vs. the people who oppose them.

The GamerGater initiative was specifically created to back up a guy smearing his girlfriend on the internet. I mean, you can't really call them "supposedly misogynistic." The sentiment literally came from guys being pissed off that a woman might've traded sexual favors for good game reviews, supposedly because of "journalism ethics," even though the majority of hatred was sexualized and directed at specifically at the woman.

They may have treated YOU better, but look at how they've treated other women. People aren't saying Gaters are evil because they're white men. They're saying they're evil because they have a well-documented history of acting like assholes.

They may have treated YOU better, but look at how they've treated other women. People aren't saying Gaters are evil because they're white men. They're saying they're evil because they have a well-documented history of acting like assholes.

Just like feminists and social justice activists (if we're going to tar a whole group by the actions of a few members). Try this on:

They may have treated YOU better, but look at how they've treated other women. People aren't saying feminists are evil because they support equal rights. They're saying they're evil because they have a well-documented history of acting like assholes.

Now, if you'll agree with *that* statement based on the same logic you use, I'll agree with your statement.

I'm starting to believe you're either an elaborate troll or just completely unwilling to admit you're wrong because of internet stubbornness.

I mean, according to your logic, "I have so many good friends in the KKK! Only a few crazies are actually white supremacists! They actually mostly just have bake-offs!" is a valid argument.

You can't look at just individuals you know when evaluating an organization. You have to look at what the group means at its core and what their driving force is. The driving force of feminism is the idea that women and men are equals. The driving force of gamergate is harassing women on the internet. Feminism would not exist without the concept of equality. Gamergate would not exist if not for dudebros harassing two particular women on the internet. It's pretty straightforward.