[ SECRET POST #359 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #359 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS. Also, one possibly triggering image!

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #052.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 3 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] repeats, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] huh?
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, December 30th, 2007.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[loveotter.livejournal.com]

Obviously asking nicely isn't working and hasn't worked, but seriously, if you yell and scream at a guy that he's a misogynist asshole, do you think he's gonna listen?

Not at all, but perhaps I am missing the many feminists who are going around raging and rampaging over the system? I'm not being snarky there, I just genuinely do not see it (or see it very rarely). What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing, and wherever that happens there is not a misogynist or two far behind ready to bitch about those bitching feminists.

In fact, when I do see most feminists ripping into a guy, it's, well, when he's being a misogynist asshole. (Hell, I did it back on page 2.) And while that may not be productive, it can be the quickest way to express displeasure at their opinions, or chase them off from a blog or forum or debate where people have no interest in listening to trolls. Because while we're not going to change a misogynist asshole's mind by telling him to go fuck himself, we're probably not going to change it by nicely explaining to him why he's wrong, either.

[case]

But there is a chance, right? I mean if you're chasing them off it's zero, but
talking is -- etjhkjfdhfjh going in circles.

What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing except I think the problem is, a lot of the time the way they do it is a lot harsher and stuff than necessary. From illegalism's original comment: "but I can tell you how they won't be changed: by people demanding and bitching and being cunty about it."

Isn't something between those two ideal?

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

To put it another way: Being assertive and standing your ground will get results. Throwing a tantrum and cursing a blue streak will only result in you not being taken seriously no matter how serious you are.

[loveotter.livejournal.com]

"What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing" except I think the problem is, a lot of the time the way they do it is a lot harsher and stuff than necessary.

With this much, which is perhaps the heart of the debate, I disagree. I don't think most feminists are harsher than necessary and I don't think feminism is damning itself with its most widespread beliefs and practices. I think the onus falls on men to listen and that they are for the most part dropping the ball because, as I said above, the majority simply doesn't care (or they don't want to make the effort to change).

[elwing-alcyone.livejournal.com]

Thing is, as far as I can see, the conversation illegalism wants? The one that's honest, overall in good faith and willing to see the other's point of view? That's happening. I see it all over the place, men and women hashing it out, working to understand how the system we exist in is making us hurt each other. But there aren't any gilded invitations; people can include themselves in the conversation or not.

I think most feminists start off willing to talk nice to misogynist assholes in the hope they'll see the error of their ways, but it's really tiring to explain basic principles to people who barge in expecting their ignorance to be accommodated when they could just read a book or lurk more. If they really care, they'll make an effort. And for every guy who is genuinely innocent, there are about three who've already made up their minds and are only commenting in the first place to wind people up and disrupt the productive conversation that's already going on.

Or shut it down, in the case of #13 up there. Catching more flies with honey is fine, to an extent, but when the fly just called you "dumb bitches" and "feminist cunts", I think squashing it is more than justified.