[ SECRET POST #2937 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2937 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 056 secrets from Secret Submission Post #420.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I've never understood the desire to not want a beta, at the very least for grammar and spelling corrections. I get that people won't want their plots messed with, but for things like grammar and spelling? I always have my beta look over my chapters at least 2-3 times before I post it...

[(Anonymous)]

You have a beta that will look at the same chapter 2-3 times?

Embrace them to your heart, they are gold.

[(Anonymous)]

It really depends on the beta-pool available, and on your own skill-level.

If all the people in my fandom clamoring to be betas are at or below my own level of competence then there's no difference between sending something to be beta'd and letting a fic sit for a couple of days and looking at it with fresh eyes. You're just as likely to catch typos etc. that way.

If someone's looking at my work that clearly has a better grasp of certain areas than I do, then great, but in the realms of fanfic at least they're few and far between.

[(Anonymous)]

I've sent my work to be betaed by people who weren't good at picking up errors, but added plenty of their own because they just weren't very competent.

I still learned something from them, mostly in their reactions to the plot. Everyone sees a story differently and readers can take something out of it the writer really didn't intend, especially if (trying to be kind here) they're not good readers. This kind of beta becomes more like testing for your average reader's comprehension levels. It's good to catch things like that before posting, and there's no way editing your own work would highlight it.

[(Anonymous)]

True, but that sounds a bit like dumbing down your work to the lowest common denominator of reader.

I have no control over how someone else reads. I have a responsibility to the story, and to ensure its told in the best and most authentic way I can manage. If I have to cater to everyone who might not understand something, I may as well be writing for three year olds.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but on the other hand, if I deliberately write something that could have several meanings but I've missed the most obvious interpretation because I was being too complicated I'd like to know about it before I post.

That's the sort of thing that's impossible to pick up yourself because you're not expecting it. It's not really about catering for three year olds. Just acknowledging that other people read things differently, a factor perhaps being their knowledge level.

[(Anonymous)]

But it's impossible to cater for every single level of knowledge, every single possible interpretation of something. Otherwise you really are bringing your work down to the lowest common denominator, and its quality is going to suffer as a result. Certainly its creativity, its thoughtfulness, its potential.

YMMV, but I don't really care if there are going to be some readers who don't 'get' my work. They'll always exist and even if I send it to a hundred different betas of a hundred different reading and comprehension levels, it'll still fly over someone's head. Plenty do get it, and I'm more than satisfied with that.

[(Anonymous)]

It wasn't so much that it would fly over their heads, but that it would have a completely different meaning to some readers. As a writer, I would want to know, or else I'm the one who would look an idiot.

For example, I'm currently watching Korra, which is all about tribes of benders. In British English "bender" means something completely different than in American English.

You can imagine how the Avatar film played in cinemas here. "You are a great bender like your father before you!" met with many disbelieving titters. Not surprisingly, it didn't do great business.

[(Anonymous)]

But within the context of the universe as it's set up, you accept the different meaning.

Should the writers have used another term just because some Brits (I am one, btw, and never once made the sniggery connection while I was watching ATLA) use the term in a slang context? And which slang context? The gay context? The "going on a bender" context?

You can't cater to everyone. You make your choice for what works for your story.

The Avatar film didn't do good business because it was crap not because all of us were sitting in the audience giggling like ten year olds at "bender".

[(Anonymous)]

DA

This was probably more valuable before people began reading obcsure offence into even the most innocent things. Before people set out looking for things to tear into that simply don't exist.

"It could be interpreted differently" loses all it's value and usefulness when you don't even know whether your critic is genuine or just a militant SJW who's decided to hate you just because your character's last name is White.

[(Anonymous)]

DA - The dumbing down concern is valid, but the thing about writing stories is that if you fail to connect with your audience, you've failed, period. It's easy to go too far with the "well I'm not changing my story just for you idiots" attitude, and that attitude usually accompanies terrible writers who aren't turning out good work but who use that excuse to not change.

I'm not saying this is what you're doing, mind you. But it depends on your intent. When I'm writing, I want to write the best story I can (though I have no idea what you mean by "authentic"...) to the best of my abilities. But I also want people to enjoy it, and I'd like them to see the story I see in my head, if that makes any sense. If I can't communicate the story I'm picturing (or at least something close) to the average reader, then that's on me and my shortcomings as a writer.

[(Anonymous)]

There's a huge difference between communicating your story clearly and changing your work to unrecognizable degrees (which is what I meant by authentic) just in case someone misinterprets something.

I am an older writer. When I wrote fanfic, I wrote fairly complex plots that I knew from the get-go weren't going to appeal to most of the fandom demographic who were a) young, b) not exposed to a lot of other fiction and other literary techniques and c) looking for quick, cute porn.

The advice in this thread smacked too much of saying that, since most of the fandom would likely struggle to follow my work, I should just forget about that and write the cute porn instead.

Like I said, I'm aware that this costs me readers. That's fine. Every work has its audience, and if mine are the older and more well-read members of fandom then I'm okay with that even if there are far fewer of them.

[(Anonymous)]

That's not what I said, although it's interesting that's what you chose to see it as.

I also write in a way that I've long accepted isn't for everyone. I'm on the old side for fandom, and have a higher level of education than most people. It's just a statistical fact.

However, I do want to know if I've inadvertently said something really stupid in my fic that even a thirteen-year-old would have picked up, because I can't see the wood for the trees.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure which part you're refuting. You're the one who brought up communicating clearly vs "I'm not changing my story", and I only addressed why there's a difference.

If you mean the part about the advice in this thread, I assumed from your DA tag that you weren't the person I was originally talking to (i.e. the person who suggested that 'advice' in the first place). Apologies if you are, but my opinion on that advice still stands.

I don't write for thirteen year olds. What they pick up from my work is pretty irrelevant to me in this context, and their idea of "something stupid" is equally so. What they think is "stupid" may just be something they haven't encountered before. What they don't understand may just be something thirteen year olds can't understand by dint of being thirteen. It certainly isn't something on the basis of which I'd change my work in any way. I'd rather know that my intended audience was getting it the way I wanted them to.

[(Anonymous)]

if you fail to connect with your audience, you've failed

I spend most of my time in edit simplifying my language and sentence structure so it doesn't get in the way of the story. I definitely agree with you.

[(Anonymous)]

My reason for not wanting a beta is that I don't post frequently enough to justify keeping in contact with a dedicated beta. I also tend to sit on the things that I do post for at least six months before finishing and posting them, which gives me time to look over it with a fresh set of eyes twenty times over. I'll usually have a friend look over it quickly for errors before I post, and the friend in question always tells me when something is confusing or my characterization is screwy.

I also happen to be in a couple of very small fandoms where I'm easily the most experienced writer there, and the few times I've asked people in them for opinions on characterization/plot/pacing, I got nothing I hadn't already figured out for myself. It was a waste of time, basically.

Over the years I've just gotten used to self-correcting my bad writing habits. A beta would be nice, but I can cope without one.

[(Anonymous)]

+1 to all of this.

Also, a lot of people are mentioning the fact that sometimes people aren't prepared for concrit, but not one has mentioned the reverse also being common. I've had betas who were flat out wrong on things that were basic grammar or an easy fact check, so forgive me if I don't take one reader's word as gospel.

[(Anonymous)]

It's my understanding that most professional writers use multiple betas, and they have a professional editor looking at it at the end. Do fanfic writers generally only use one?

[(Anonymous)]

It really doesn't make sense to compare what professional writers do to what fanfic writers do. Professional writers have an obligation to their publishers to make sure that their work meets a certain level of quality. Fanfic writers just have to please themselves and fellow fans.

But, to answer the question, most fanfic writers don't use multiple betas.

[(Anonymous)]

I use one beta for my pro work. However when something gets accepted, you're looking at three or four stages of edits (content, line, proofing etc.), and potentially several revisions at each stage.

[(Anonymous)]

Most fanfic writers don't use any beta at all, from what I can tell. I used to use at least one, although now I usually don't use any.

I used to use up to three betas if the fic was for a fest. Each beta would cover a different area as well as give my fic a general once over.

There are still lots of writers who use multiple betas. I recently did beta for someone who had two betas for the same short fic. Again it was for a fest. Fic exchanges tend to make fanfic writers want to get more betas because the fics are meant as gifts.

[(Anonymous)]

I look for betas outside my fandom to avoid this problem.

If I was genuinely the best writer in my own fandom and I knew it, I'd find it lonely.