[ SECRET POST #2946 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2946 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 038 secrets from Secret Submission Post #421.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Confessions

[(Anonymous)]

Well, that would be differentiating from beliefs/practices that are harmful to yourself and others, and beliefs/practices that aren't.

Personally, I think as long as it isn't hurting others, people should be allowed to practice as they wish.

If we're going with the anti-vaccination example: Say someone doesn't want to get vaccinated because they think vaccinations turn you into a receptacle for Lovecraftian horrors. Well, that's their prerogative and it's their body. They want to die of smallpox? Their problem.

If they start preventing their children from being vaccinated, or trying to push laws stopping EVERYONE from getting vaccinated, then yeah, that's shitty and they need to shut the fuck up.

There's a difference.

There's also a difference from those who set up their small altars to Cthulhu and engage in gibberish chanting with other peaceful believers, and those who go running through the streets yelling at people to throw themselves into the sea before their alien masters.

Re: Confessions

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I mean, I agree. But I think it's about having the right vs being deserving of respect. I think anyone has the right to believe, to say, and to act as they like provided it does not threaten the welfare of others or otherwise harm society. But I felt like the issue here is, does religion automatically deserve respect, and my point was that it doesn't.

Not that religion should not respected, but rather, bad beliefs are a reason why one should be able to voice dissent, even loudly. And who defines what hurt really is? If a teenage child is refusing cancer treatments because the parents taught her to believe that holistic/alternative approaches or long sessions of prayer are more effective, what should we do? The teenager believes it. Is it different if the child is 17 or 18? Or, by not getting vaccinated, an adult may well be asserting his religious beliefs, but he is putting others at risk, such as infants too young to get vaccinations. What about a woman who also believes that it is her place to stay in the home, and never go out without a male escort? She believes it too, it's her choice, but maybe it's been so culturally engrained in her that she wasn't able to consider any other possibility. Is this a problem?

How about the belief that everyone else is going to hell, to burn eternally for not believing in your god? This is just a spiritual offense, maybe. If I'm an atheist, I don't literally have to worry about burning in hell. But is this still not pretty offensive nonetheless, if it's the thought that counts? Should we still be quiet and respectful at that point?

I'm not saying I have a clear answer. I'm not OP and I don't think religion is inherently evil, though it seems most religions have plenty in them that I don't agree with. But respecting beliefs because of cultural and sensitivity reasons, I think that's a good value, yet I also see open discussion and criticism of wrong or offensive beliefs as completely valid.

(there is, of course, a time and a place for that.)

Re: Confessions

[(Anonymous)]

IA that open discussion and criticism of wrong or offensive beliefs is HUGELY important

but the way a lot of people go about it is just... really not productive at all. the "smug atheist" stereotype is there for a reason, and it's unfortunate that many atheists seem to project (unwittingly or not) an impression that they know everything - or know better.

(what about that whole series of "euphoria" pictures of the dudes in trilbies? damn, that was embarassing.)

it becomes a problem when, rather than saying the BELIEF is stupid, it looks a lot more like saying the PERSON is stupid (and, in addition, "i'm smarter.") this attitude is unhelpful and also untrue. not only because one's belief in a religion is really no indicator of one's intelligence, there's also the fact that there's so much we just don't know. there's so much we as a species still don't know.

most people aren't stupid. most people are IGNORANT of facts, and the absolute best atheists I can think of are the ones who seek to educate people.

you're just very unlikely to stop people from being religious. i just think it's not gonna happen. but what you CAN do is teach people about science.

my mother will always be a Christian, but you know what she loves doing now? she loves reading interesting books of facts about the world and watching science docos. because it makes her happy and it's interesting to learn about the world. and she's a much less bigoted person as a result.

and that's awesome. you can't control what people do or don't believe, that is entirely up to them. but i think you can at least move people from more bigoted, rigid positions of belief, to belief that is more open and flexible.

Re: Confessions

[(Anonymous)]

It seems we're on the same page. I agree that screaming at someone isn't going to change anyone's mind, but educating them or helping them think about different ideas might. And the "smug atheist" attitude really will not change anyone. You can be confident in your beliefs, but no one is ever going to respond to being condescended to positively.

But it also seems to me that not every conflict with religion is going to involve a heart-to-heart conversation. Whereas that's probably the only way to actually get someone to open up on a personal level, what about a societal level? What if we're talking about implementing some religiously inspired law (prayer in school, defining marriage as a man and woman), is it right to gently oppose, or can you just let it all out and say that's stupid and that some beliefs are just bad beliefs? At that point is it about changing minds, or is it about asserting honestly what you feel should and shouldn't be a societal norm?

It's sort of a situational thing, I think. If I were talking with my elderly grandmother, who is racist and homophobic, I don't have to respect those parts of her no matter how sincerely she believes she is right. But I'm also not going to scream at her, I'll calmly tell her I disagree, or at best, gently try to ease her mind to open up a bit. She's not really going to change, she's too old, of course. But I can still respect her as a person and see more to her than her terrible beliefs. If I see people protesting and harassing women outside of an abortion clinic, I'm probably not going to gently sit them down and talk it out (even if that's got a better chance of working then me telling them to fuck off).