[ SECRET POST #2951 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2951 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[The To-Do List, Brandy/Willy]


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03.
[Avatar: Legend of Korra]


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04.
[The Amazing World of Gumball]


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05.
[Agents of Shield]


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06.
[Game of Thrones]


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07.
[Galavant]


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08.
[Soukyuu no Fafner Exodus]


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09.
[Jamie Dornan from "The Fall"]


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10.
(Neil Gaiman)













Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #422.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[sarillia]

Why outlaw anything then?

[iceyred]

Because most people obey most laws most of the time. You're always going to have a criminal element, but a lot of people are deterred from breaking the law either by their own morality or by the fact that jail and fines are not good things. I make it a point to steer clear of Nazis, but from what I can tell they don't fear going to jail.

Laws help us govern ourselves, but by prohibiting these people from meeting and speaking we're A. denying them their freedom of speech and assembly, and B. passing useless laws that specifically target the people least likely to care about them.

[sarillia]

I guess that's fair. I think there's something to be said about how laws can help shape societal attitudes though. I'd much rather it be the other way around so I want to work on changing rhetoric without enforcing that change with laws, but I do think that laws can have some effect on the way people think about things.

[(Anonymous)]

Laws shape societal attitudes, but they do it over the long term, not the short term. Even then, the shaping would be on the reactions of the observers, not on the neo-Nazi groups themselves. They already know their rhetoric is not well regarded by the majority of society.

[iceyred]

I can agree with that. I don't like the idea of changing attitudes through changing laws either. It sounds too much like the government telling us what to think.

Thing is that attitudes and social mores don't just change at one particular time. It took years, if not decades, for the Civil Rights era to come about and for enough people to decide 'hey, equality under the law should mean equality under the law for everyone, no matter their race.' that we could change the law. Same for LGBT rights, which is still ongoing.

[sarillia]

Hmm, both you and the anon who replied to me told me about how these attitudes take a long time to change. I'm not sure how I gave the impression I didn't realize that but obviously I did. I guess I should have stated that outright. I'm pretty resigned to all social change being very gradual.

I don't really have a big argument I was trying to promote. I'm just voicing thoughts as they come up and I was thinking about how these things all interact with each other. There have been cases where the laws came first and the attitudes that sparked the laws gained more support later (there are still people who would support racial segregation but they are much fewer than when it was first declared unconstitutional, for example).

[iceyred]

Oh. My bad. Didn't realize I was preaching to the choir. :/

[sarillia]

I really shouldn't expect anyone to know what I think tonight. I feel like I'm jumping all over the place. I just like trying to see things from other points of view and trying to see if I can think of arguments for them. I guess you could call it playing devil's advocate but it's not about strengthening the position I'm ostensibly opposing or being contrary for the sake of it, but about exploring all the different variations in opinions on whatever subject. I'm not even sure what I think at this point because I understand where everyone is coming from.

And now I'm rambling.

[iceyred]

Eh, it's a thread on FS. It's largely hypothetical (I know I've never had to witness goosestepping Nazis on Main Street). Some rambling and jumping from point to point shouldn't bother anybody too much.

[(Anonymous)]

Because it depends on what you outlaw. You can, for example, enforce rules about who gets to legally operate a motor vehicle or buy alcohol. You cannot enforce rules that limit peoples' speech, thoughts or beliefs. Not only would trying to limit peoples' expression fail miserably, but keep in mind that the governing body who decides what's okay to say/believe and what isn't is the government. Sometimes--quite often, actually!-- the government is wrong about what is and is not right. So letting everyone have the right to freedom of speech is not a perfect system, but I still think it's the best system.

[sarillia]

I agree with you. I realize now I was responding more to the reminder of more annoying places the "criminals don't care if it's against the law, they'll do it anyway" argument has come up.