[ SECRET POST #2957 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2957 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 064 secrets from Secret Submission Post #423.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

This!

[(Anonymous)]

The Victorians were a sentimental lot.

[(Anonymous)]

This is what I think a lot of modern readers don't get, the whole idea of platonic love between two men. By the time ACD was a writer, England had been through the Great War. Much like Tolkien's Sam/Frodo relationship, the idea of two men bonded through trial and hardship in a companionship so close it feels like marriage but doesn't necessarily include a sexual relationship was not an uncommon idea in Victorian literature. It just seems weird now, because of the twitchy "no homo" thing people have where emotional intimacy = physical intimacy.

[(Anonymous)]

na

By the time ACD was a writer, England had been through the Great War

This confuses me slightly. The majority of ACD's Sherlock Holmes stories were published in the late 19th century and early 20th century prior to World War I (not all of them, but most). Is there another war referred to as The Great War? I mean, there probably is, but I don't recall it.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the majority of Sherlock Holmes stories pre-date WWI. A Study in Scarlet was published in 1887 and everything up through the The Return of Sherlock Holmes was published before 1905. All but one of the stories in His Last Bow were from before the war, while "His Last Bow" was from 1917. The only other part of the Holmes canon contemporaneous with WWI was The Valley of Fear, which was published in late 1914 through mid-1915. Finally, the stories in The Case Book are from the 1920s.

I vaguely remembered something about Doyle being linked to the Boer War, but Wikipedia tells me he just wrote about it and wasn't in it or anything.

The UK fought other wars, but I really don't think there was anything in the late 1800s and early 1900s that could compare to WWI in terms of cultural impact.

[tweedisgood]

Doyle served in a field hospital in South Africa during the war:

http://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event/south-african-war-field-doctor-arthur-conan-doyle-born


and his knighthood was for his propaganda in supporting it.

[(Anonymous)]

You're right, I got my dates mixed up. The whole idea of deep platonic bonds still stands, though.

[a_potato]

Yes! Absolutely.

It was far more socially acceptable for men to have intense friendships back then. They'd express their love to one another, link arms when walking down the street, exchange emotional letters...and while I'm sure there were clandestine lovers among them, many of them were truly just friends.

It actually makes me rather sad. Men now are trained to always maintain a certain amount of distance between themselves, and they have a harder time developing deep and long-lasting friendships as a result.

[(Anonymous)]

not saying that I disagree, but I do think there is some notable extent to which that bond can also, in some cases, be homoerotic

for instance, the WWI officer / enlisted man relationship that Frodo and Sam are based on is certainly an example where you could have strong emotional intimacy with no undertone of sex or physicality - but it was also a relationship where there's a recurrent theme of homoeroticism in works where it's depicted. the things aren't at all as separate as you're making them out to be.

[(Anonymous)]

Right. But I'm not saying there is absolutely no homosexuality or homoeroticism implied, only that it's not a given the way some people seem to think. It's particularly unlikely in the Sherlock Holmes stories, which were written as very mainstream entertainment in a time when most people weren't very hung ho on homosexuality.

[(Anonymous)]

fair enough then fair point

[(Anonymous)]

Sure, here's the problem I have with this argument: it's used to dismiss any possibly homoerotic context. And homoerotic subtext was, in fact, a very real thing, and has been for literally thousands of years. Just as male sexual relationships were a thing.

So I don't think we should make assumptions about the author's intent. Yes, it's great to bear in mind that certain actions or behaviors might not have been abnormal a hundred years ago whereas today they might raise eyebrows. But homoeroticism was a thing, and frankly, I've seen people dismiss stuff as "cultural difference" when even leading scholars admit that it was probably homoerotic.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think anything I said indicated homosexuality or homoerotic relationships weren't real. Just because an argument is occasionally misused doesn't mean it's invalid. While I can't say that ACD didn't intend for there to be a homoerotic subtext or outright homosexual relationship in canon as the secret stated, I'd argue that it's very unlikely.

[(Anonymous)]

Doyle took the view that homosexuality was an illness [but, in contrast to many contemporaries, did not feel it should be a crime] - he says so in black and white in "Memories and Adventures". No assumptions about authorial intent needed: we have his own views to read.

[(Anonymous)]

Most people thought it was an illness back then - yet homoerotic subtext in art and literature was very much alive and well. That's not remotely an argument one way or the other.