[ SECRET POST #3031 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3031 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Going to be a late day, so early secrets!

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 035 secrets from Secret Submission Post #433.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Well, obviously. But the fact remains that these idealized images are often being created by women, who are aware that their readership is also, in large percentage, female. Who's this catering for when it's not the male gaze? If I (and many others) find myself being completely alienated by another woman's idea of a relatable female character that's yet another impossible ideal no one can ever live up to?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I wonder...

Do you think it's because women are taught by society more to be in competition with one another? I know things have changed, but I think that society still puts a big focus on girls' worth being tied to "getting a man." And thus other women are perceived as "competition."

You see this even in female-centric works where the main female character will often be described as "not like other girls" -- in essence, somehow BETTER.

With men, men do compete with one another, no doubt. But I think society also reinforces the idea that EVERY guy will "get the girl" in the end. And that every guy deserves a girl. There's also the fact that guys seem to have a lot more "cooperative" media -- so many war films, for example, are about the deep bonds between men (where it's often implied that these are bonds that women could never understand).

I don't know...I'm just throwing ideas out there. It'd be interesting to have a guy chime in.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT-- I see this kind of stuff happen with shipping, where fans pick one character to identify with, and flip out if their favorite gets shipped with anyone else, or criticized, or whatever. Other possible halves of a pairing aren't judged on their own merits, but as competition. I used to catch myself thinking like that and have to remind myself "none of these characters are you; they're all fictional." But I've never read a work of fiction and thought, "man, I suck compared to all these awesome fictional people," and I have pathologically low self-esteem.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I think that's probably part of it; like I said in the comment before the one you're replying to, I think there's also probably some element of women writers taking on aspects of the male gaze. When you combine those two things, then you're having women compete over who's better at being what men want them to be, and thus reducing a lot of their agency in any plot to, as you say, getting a man.

When you're not especially interested or invested in a romance subplot, that makes it even tougher to relate to this tacitly 'this is how you're supposed to be/this is what you're supposed to want' female character. I find it easier on that score to care about m/m relationships because no one's telling me this is supposed to represent me. Same with male characters in general, and the still too true fact that their plotlines and agency very rarely relies on them being someone's romantic interest thus we get presented with a much more rounded characterization where it's possible to find more to relate to.

I think a certain level of wish-fulfilment is also a factor, but that's an even bigger double edged sword. So many people know how it feels to not quite measure up in some way, and women especially so when it comes to self-image. Of course if you get the opportunity to create a character then it's tempting to veer into Mary Sue territory and make her everything you wish you could be, everything you think you should be. But on the flip side, if you know how that feels, how does creating yet another impossible, unattainable ideal help?

IDK. I'm just tired of reading about heroines that reflect no part of me at all above the chromosomal level. Of course I suspect that if media actually did provide 'realistic' characters then we'd call them caricatures and shun them just as much (same as the loud voices who call for diversity of any kind, and then just don't consume the product withdiversity when it's presented to them), but I just find it depressing.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

We are not socialized to compete. It is human nature to compete. We are born in a world of limited resources, and competition is the natural result.

IMO feminism's stubborn unwillingness to address this is one of its biggest failures. But hey, it's so much easier and more convenient to blame men or society than to admit that women might compete with each other because they're human.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

This struck a chord with me, mostly because I find many feminists are also unwilling to address that competition within their own circles is a huge problem and is making them weaker overall. It's also prompted some potential rank and file members (like myself) to on a good day stay on the sidelines and on really bad days devote my energy to other causes that do not focus on a particular sex or other US federally protected characteristics (e.g. tackling ethical issues in bioengineering endeavors).

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

It's one of the things that's caused me to reject their entire movement.

FFS, feminists will actually compete with each other over who is the better feminist.

But men and society are the problem. Uh-huh. Ok.

[(Anonymous)]

You don't think it's a mixture of the two?

Yeah, we have a biologically-driven desire for competition, but society doesn't discourage that, either. We *could* socialize children to be less competitive, not more.

[(Anonymous)]

No, I think competitiveness is fundamental to our existence as human beings. Society doesn't discourage it because it would be futile to try. All we can do is try to channel our competitiveness into productive endeavors rather than all-out war.

How do you propose we socialize children to be less competitive? Do we ban sports, science fairs, spelling bees, field days, etc.? Should we stop giving awards? Should we give awards to everyone regardless of merit? We already do the latter, and it only seems to create a sense of apathy or resentment.