[ SECRET POST #3034 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3034 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 096 secrets from Secret Submission Post #434.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[herpymcderp]

I don't think it's particularly hateful/prejudiced/contemptuous towards men as a whole

Well, that's definitely what it looks like from the outside, so I see where you're coming from. But unless you were actually subject to it, I think it can be very difficult to judge the intent of supportive statements encouraging toxic masculinity.

Like the more subtle female-female misogyny that exists in female dominated spaces, the male-male misandry that comes under the guise of toxic masculinity can be pretty damn hateful, actually. A lot of the hatred stems from the same place as racism, homophobia, and transphobia (and those are often elements that are also included) but hatred of non-conforming men is a real thing. If you want a good example just watch a thread of people reacting to femdom where the woman takes a dominant role in the relationship. The hatred towards "weak" men flows freely, like a giant stream of watery diarrhea.

I'll grant you, it's not always about hate and disempowerment but it is in certain situations.

[(Anonymous)]

I will admit to not being a man and thus perhaps my opinion isn't as insightful here.

But I suppose it doesn't seem like misandry to me because it's not hating men FOR BEING men. It hates men for not being the "right type" of men -- of not behaving in expected ways.

When we talk about misogyny, to me, that reflects hatred of women precisely because they're women.

I guess I'll say that the semantic issues aren't what bother me so much as the fact that men feel an immense pressure to "live up" to these highly unhealthy (often emotionally-stunting) "ideals."

Either way, I'll bow out because I'm not exactly an expert here and I don't think it's my place to try to define these terms.

[herpymcderp]

I think if we can make distinctions and say that the word misogyny is often applied to the disdain for women who aren't the "right type" of women, that the word misandry can be applied in an approximately equivalent manner.

There are broader categories of misandry as well, of course, I'm just trying to use an easily accessible example (since it's one I'm personally familiar with).

Also, I don't think this is a discussion that should strictly be had by men because that usually leads to the MRA failing of assuming that there is more misandry going on than there actually is: a common byproduct of having an insular group that doesn't consider the broader picture. Plus, I have to believe as a male feminist that the best way to tackle these issues is as a united front against gender inequality, regardless of which gender is on the receiving end.

[(Anonymous)]

I just don't want to talk over you is all.

It's an issue that concerns me a lot because I have a little brother and I see the ways in which he performs masculinity around his friends (and he's not even a teenager yet).

Such as in his online gaming matches, he'll speak with a deeper voice and let himself get excited much less readily.

He's much more emotionally open with me than he is with his friends where they're always trying to appear collected and "cool." And I just can't help but feel a little sorry him having to do that (although I know this isn't exclusive to guys since girls go through the same super self-conscious phase).

Where misogyny comes into play vs. misandry though is that even if a woman is the "right type" of woman, she's still not seen as equal by misogynists because she's a woman. Whereas a man who is the "right type" of man will be perceived as equal and worthwhile.

Something I would define as misandry might be how little we as a society trust single men with children. Because that's a mistrust that exist due to the fact that a person is male. It doesn't matter if he fits all of society's "ideals" about masculinity, BECAUSE he is male, he will be viewed with suspicion where a woman is not. Its flipside though is tied to the misogynistic notion of women as inherent caretakers rather than breadwinners.

But I do 100% agree with you that the best way of dealing with these issues is to present a united front.

[herpymcderp]

Yep. Those are pretty much all cogent points, and I will say that I'm not one of those people who seriously believes misandry is "as much of a problem as misogyny", because that's patently untrue.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with people who refuse to believe it or see it just because they feel men have it good enough already.

Nobody has it good enough. It's not "good", imo, until everyone is equal and no one is pressured into performing a role that they don't want to just because someone told them that is how they are supposed to behave.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed.

The way I think of feminism is that it's a movement for the elimination of gender roles. Not that women shouldn't be homemakers (if they want), but just that there shouldn't be any assumptions or roles attached to either gender in the first place. It's a bit why I push back agains the term egalitarian or humanist because those aren't really specifically concerned with gender roles.

But I think any progress made in the movement will inevitably benefit both men and women (though sometimes it takes a while).

[herpymcderp]

That's pretty much the reason I call myself a feminist instead of using a different term, yeah. Fuck gender roles. Fuck them with something hard and sandpapery.

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

I've often wondered why so many of my friends have such disdain for self-described male feminists, and now I know. Thank you for that enormous belly-laugh.

[herpymcderp]

1/10 because I'm replying to give you a rating.

[(Anonymous)]

Male feminist who thinks his opinion of women is relevant to them, ding-ding-ding.

[(Anonymous)]

lolwhat

[diet_poison]

because Herpy = all male feminists?

(Seriously, I really wish guys wouldn't be afraid to be involved in feminism and I wish female feminists wouldn't be disdainful of them for trying. I don't think it helps)

[herpymcderp]

Well, I still care about women being equal to men and vice versa regardless of what someone else thinks about my involvement, so.

[(Anonymous)]

As Herpy said, there's no chance of it changing my political views. The only thing it could have a legitimate chance of changing is whether or not I choose to identify as a feminist.

[diet_poison]

fair enough.