[ SECRET POST #394 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 375 secrets from Secret Submission Post #057.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] personal attack, [ 1 ] we went through this yesterday.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, February 4th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[dev-chieftain.livejournal.com]

Okay, let's just take this aside and clarify something. What exactly do you mean by "long lasting bond"? Are you saying that a human being is incapable of the strong emotions necessary to be in "love" at the tender age of sixteen?

Setting aside the fact that theoretically you should be in love with your family platonically by this age, let's first look at this historically, and then psychologically.

Historically, people were married and set for life usually between the ages of 12-18 in Western society. People could be married and sexually active much earlier than this (as early as 9, which, despite every stupid piece of fiction ever, is the earliest age a girl can get her period. Trust me: I speak from experience.), but it was downright STRANGE and considered undesirable to wait beyond the age of, say, 20 to marry. This is not just because the lifespan of a human being varies depending on the society her or she lives in (making 20 sometimes middle-aged for people in certain unlucky points in history), but because physically, it is an enormous health risk to bear children after the age of thirty, and usually impossible by the time you are forty (thanks to menopause).

Psychologically speaking, humans develop in several quick stages early on. From 1-3, they are infantile. They tend to be developing basic behavioral patterns, and such important skills as "motor control". Memory is not a very strong part of this stage of development. Humans are at their most exploratory at this age. From about 4-7, they are "children", and while memory is still difficult to maintain, it's stronger. Children at this age group begin to learn about concepts such as lying-- the possibility that what they are told may not in fact be true. From about 9-12 they are "pre-adolescent", and while they show the more full scope of human cognition and ability that we recognize in adults, certain hormones are not necessarily being produced within them at this time, which somewhat limits their capacity for thought and emotion by comparison to their elders. It is not that they cannot EXPERIENCE these deeper cognitive processes and emotions, so much as that the experience, if it occurs, will be very difficult if not impossible for them to define. It should also be noted that the most "learning" one does is done from ages 1-5, and following that the mind is less receptive to outside input and information. From 13-25, you are completing your growth into adulthood, but psychologically speaking, 13-25 year olds are alreayd capable of the full range of thought and emotion available to humanity as we know it.

So, in short, you are completely wrong: 16 year olds are not only historically capable of forming or being forced into a long lasting bond, but fully physically and psychologically capable of forming a long lasting bond if they so choose and if fortune happens to grant them such a thing. Perhaps you and I would not be so interested in developing an emotional dependency like that, but it is FAR from impossible.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

"Historically, people were married and set for life usually between the ages of 12-18 in Western society"

Yes, but little girls were often chosen or sold off to more wealthy men for the 'good of the family'. Love was rarely a nessicary component in such relationships.

I'm fully aware of the sexually active thing, etc etc. I got my period at 9. I know.

Also, I said it RARELY HAPPENS, I didn't say impossible. There are kids out there capable of that, but they are few and far between, especially considering the amount of mental stimulation teens have these days.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you going to reply to this citing anything except personal experience? I mean, anywhere? How about some literature on old-fashioned marriages? What about the amount of mental stimulation teens have 'these days' when education is mandatory, unlike those days? Do you have any data to show that the mental stimulation is lower in these days and age? Do you have any data on teenage relationships and their stability compared to the data on adult relationships and their stability?

If you're unwiling to contribute in an intelligent and informed, educated manner, I suggest you kindly shut the fuck up.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

I HAS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN THE 1800S, TRUFAX.

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for ignoring my point in favor of my forgetting to add "or based off popular opinion instead of researching data and citing facts there too". That really helps emphasize your stance as right and well-thought-out.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

whatever, anon. Seriously, whatever.

[(Anonymous)]

I had, actually, meant it seriously. I don't care what side you argue as long as it's true, or at least has some academic evidence backing it up as likely. Right now what you're doing is a lot of noise and fury, and we know what that signifies.

Contribute to the discussion intelligently. Or stop spreading unresearched misinformation. What with these being important issues, I'd hope you to consider that.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

you talk like i havent. I have. I have researched. But whatever, im not wasting my time on idiots like you any longer.

[(Anonymous)]

Then cite something! I assume you went through academia -- this one should be a no-brainer. Anecdotal evidence =/= believable. Researched, cited, intelligent evidence = believable.

Right, I suggest providing proof and backing up your statements, and you can't be bothered, so I'm the idiot. This fits very well in the worldview you're sharing so far.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

Eh, if you cant be bothererd to log in I can;t be botheredt o do what you want.

[(Anonymous)]

...lol.

I hope people save that one for posterity, seriously.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

Seriously, though. Log in if you want me to take you seriously.

[harukami]

Does this mean you're now gonna go and cite all your sources? Maybe provide a few articles?

The point was, though, that not wanting to switch out of an RP journal and having an easier time just hitting the anon button, especially on bloody FS, is totally different from spreading misinformation or refusing to treat a serious issue as something worth digging up actual academic treatment of. I can't believe that as an intelligent human being you were even doing the "well if you're just being anon I can't be bothered to not be an irresponsible person" thing.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

lol.

[harukami]

I'll take that as a not-so-surprising 'No' then.

[manda-babylon.livejournal.com]

You're not going to get much out of tealizard than "I R RITE! I KNOWZ IT BACAZ O MAI LEARNINZ!" and "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL - debate on the internets is STUPID (except when I'm doing it!)"

Don't worry about it.

[harukami]

*g* Thank you. I figured it was worth a shot, but wasn't honestly expecting that much. I really appreciate the comment though ;;

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Yes, but little girls were often chosen or sold off to more wealthy men for the 'good of the family'. Love was rarely a nessicary component in such relationships.

Those relationships did not make up the norm, and therefore are not representative of the history of human courtship. And I'd like to add that dev_chieftain's claim is true for a number of Eastern cultures as well. You've got generations working against you.

Frankly, I've never subscribed to the idea that some kind of soul-deep long-lasting bond is necessary before sex can even be discussed. I think that responsible sex should comprise of both parties a) knowing and trusting their partner, b) getting mutual consent, and c) being educated in and practicing safe sex. If this is going to make me a horrible parent someday in others' view, so be it, but I definitely think that a 16-year-old should be able to comply with those requirements if they applied themselves and had all the right assistance, so it's not a question of whether or not they are "mentally prepared". Mind you, unwanted pregnancy can happen regardless of how much precaution you take, but this problem is, in fact, not exclusive to teenagers.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

the fact is, kids can't even support themselves, yet theyre bringing lives into the world and burdening themseleves and those around them. It's great between consenting adults, love or not.

The bad thing is kids taking OMG LYK TRU LUV to be an excuse to have sex with someone they'll dump next week, and doing so unprotected. Adults can emotionally understand sex, and in most cases are able to financially and emotionally support themselves and a child, if one were to come into their lives.

TL;DR:

Sex is great and you don't need a 'soul deep long lasting bond', but you shouldnt use one at the age of 16 as an excuse to fuck.
you should at LEAST use protection if you can't legally or financially support yourself, god only knows you cant support a BABY.
At least an adult, in most cases, will be able to financially care for an unwanted child.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Okay. Several things. One, you seem to be making a lot of generalizations, and frankly I don't even understand what point you're trying to make. Obviously, in my scenario, teenagers who make their best effort to understand and practice safe sex (as they should be educated to do) are clearly not seeking to "bring new lives into the world", so why are we even talking about this? If they practice safe sex, and manage to understand the seriousness of the situation, they can cite TRU WUV and dump each other afterwards for all I care. If we're going to go by experience, then that would be my experience of growing up. By the standards of some, I'm a clearly a stupid slut; by my standards, I learned valuable lessons and grew as a person.

Furthermore, there are alternative options - not limited to abortion - for teenage parents who are incapable of supporting a family, and believe it or not, this is a major part of the sexual health movement for adolescents. And let's not forget that unplanned pregnancies can happen between consenting adults, too. Seriously, I think you'd be putting too much faith in humanity to expect all adults to emotionally understand sex, but even outside of this, accidents happen. Now I'll come off unpopular for saying this, but I personally think that instead of making teenagers fear sex like it's something horrible and taboo, we should help them to understand it; that way, they might not make so many mistakes, even as adults.

[midnightdiddle.livejournal.com]

<3

Your comments are all full of win. Win, and common sense, which seems to be lacking in F!S.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I love everyone who has spoken up on this issue so far, because it's really not okay. Call it gearing up for V-Day and the Vagina Monologues, but discussion of serious topics like this make me really happy.

[specialize.livejournal.com]