fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #394 ]

⌈ Secret Post #394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 375 secrets from Secret Submission Post #057.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] personal attack, [ 1 ] we went through this yesterday.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, February 4th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

As Women's Centers generally work closely with the Gender and Sexuality Studies department and LGBT groups, I'd be surprised if that reality were in fact alien to me. While I perhaps should not have called into question your understanding of our mission, the fact that you insinuated, however faintly, that my position as a WC staff limits my understanding of the big picture - essentially saying that helping women has blinded me to the plight if men, so to speak - led me to respond as such.

You have to understand that, in this particular conversation, the point being contested is neither that women are the only victims of abuse, nor that men should always hold the rod of responsibility in the relationship. We are admittedly excluding many cases of differing nature, including same sex relationships and issues of familial abuse. But that doesn't matter here at least, because what I'm trying to do here (and I gather, what everyone is doing as well) is argue against the stated claim that, and I quote, "Just saying that even if he's the horniest sex-fiend on the face of the planet, in the end, I think the girl usually has more control (or lack thereof) on the situation." That, I think, put the argument into a very specific light. You wanted case by case? This is the case I'm talking about.

Sorry, I assumed that you were being biased because I was getting a really anti-male tone from your comments. Obviously this is the internet and people's tones can be entirely misinterpreted, which this obviously was a case of.

But the case that you're arguing is an opinion - and a very generalized one at that.

techn0ir is entitled to believe that the woman is generally in control just as much as you are entitled to believe the opposite. You're both basing your opinions off your experiences.

And you're both ultimately saying the same thing: That one gender or the other is usually in control. Which, as far as I'm concerned, makes both your points moot because usually is such a vague term. I honestly think gender is completely irrelevant. From my experience, control in relationships is mainly dependent upon personality. And I'm talking about in relationships, not situations of abuse because I do think those are special cases.

(Sorry if this is kind of muddled, my thoughts aren't quite translating into words properly XD)

techn0ir is entitled to hold their belief, and I am entitled to challenge it with rhetorics when I find said belief to be false. This is why arguments happen, Internet or otherwise. Of course no one can strip him/her of the right to express the opinion, the most we can do is say, "Hey, we think you're wrong and here's why."

Now, as to the issue of control, while what I ultimately wish for is equal say in the matter for both parties, I personally think that basing everything on personality is a slightly idealistic way of looking at things, and so is disregarding gender. There is some truth to the reality of the prevalence of traditional gender roles even in present day's society, and the conventions those roles establish put women in a very disadvantaged position when it comes to making these choices. Yes, we do teach our daughters to say no and respect their bodies, but exactly how much of that has to go against the long-ingrained mindset of the submissive female, we do not know.

I personally think that when it comes to safe sex, at least, both parties should be as aware as they can be, and if any one side is expected to take a bigger responsibility, already some element of abuse has entered into the equation. As the subjects of today's discussion are teenagers, I have to say again that young girls definitely have less control in most situations (yes, yes, that "usually" thing again). To impose adult standards onto adolescent relationships, and thinking that people that young always understand enough to respect the wishes of the other partner, that's highly unrealistic.

Edited 2008-02-04 01:29 (UTC)

I believe she is not stating an opinion, but is in fact making an argument, which is different.

And I believe you are missing the point.

tecnn0ir, from what I gather, argues that women should bear more responsibility for safe sex because women are primarily the ones in control of sex.

ronsard argues that both men and women ought to bear equal responsibility, even though it is often the case that men have more control over sexual situations.

See the difference?

How you cut through the whale-thick layers of my BS to the core of the issue! ♥

♥ You make a well-reasoned argument.

People should take more philosophy imho.

And to add one final point, something about the benefit of experience merits consideration. Of course it's unwise to talk about shit we don't know, and what can we possibly know more about than things with which we are personally acquainted? In this case, for example, I cannot seem understand why the fact that my arguments are based on my experience should somehow invalidate their credibility. This is experience I have gathered from various sources, ranging from my own life to my workplace, an environment directly related to the issue of contention, and finally, from my studies of W,G & S literature. I am allowed to draw my own conclusions from my experience, and I am allowed to defend their merits when doubts are being cast, and I think it is unfair to write them off pointblank as meaningless simply because they are my conclusions.

Should the other person, in this case being

techn0ir, also choose to cite evidence of their experience to act as basis for their opinion, I am willing to give those citations due consideration, much like I have taken into account your argument for the role that personality plays in deciding power balance in relationships, but beseech you still to consider the age group of the subjects.

Edited 2008-02-04 01:44 (UTC)

Hellooooo, you are my heroooooo~

NO U.

But seriously, thanks for opening the floor for discussion and then standing by your beliefs so admirably. Wanky as this entire debacle is turning out to be, I'm a bit glad F!S is housing an issue more weighty than two fictional characters sleeping together.

Hey, you're welcome. And thank YOU for handling the resulting ideological scuffle with a hell of a lot more eloquence and grace than I could ever muster.

You both make me happy :)

I'm not a cynical person, but seeing this kind of mindset go unchecked tests my limits.

[ SECRET POST #394 ]

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