Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2015-09-07 06:15 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2015-09-07 06:15 pm
[ SECRET POST #3169 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3169 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
__________________________________________________
02.
__________________________________________________
03.
__________________________________________________
04.
__________________________________________________
05.
__________________________________________________
06.
__________________________________________________
07.
__________________________________________________
08.
__________________________________________________
09.
__________________________________________________
10.
__________________________________________________
11.
__________________________________________________
12.
__________________________________________________
13.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 053 secrets from Secret Submission Post #453.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-09-09 05:52 am (UTC)(link)I do agree activism on these issues helps all women. However, with equal pay, the issue is really complicated. For black people, the gap between black men and black women is smaller than the gap between black women and white women, and black men and white men. In fact every non-white ethnicity has a smaller gender wage gap than white people do, and for every non-Asian minority, the men in that group make less money than white women do on average.
Do you see why minorities would be more inclined to see income as a race issue first, far above a gender issue? And be resentful of how the demographic most likely to care about a gender gap (white women) are silent on the larger gap between races and how they outstrip the men of those races?
As for income, the jobs with the biggest pay differentials between genders are at the high end of income. Take for example the huge differences in pay in showbiz, which became apparent after the Sony hack. Gendered pay gaps are huge in other prestige jobs that require lots of skill and training like lawyers, doctors, and engineers. Again, jobs where black people of any gender have difficulty getting into.
There is still at least a 10% gender gap at every income, which is non-negligible. And feminism can help here. But it means less to the poor and non-white.
Facts from here:
http://www.aauw.org/files/2015/02/The-Simple-Truth_Spring-2015.pdf
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/heres-what-the-gender-pay-gap-looks-like-by-income-level/
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-09-09 07:48 am (UTC)(link)Yes, I can see (and respect) why minorities see income as a race issue first and foremost.
Resentment of white people makes complete sense in that context, but resentment of feminists is sorely misplaced. The gender pay gap is a feminist issue so of course it's our focus. Meanwhile the racial pay gap is not a feminist issue. It's a racial issue. That doesn't mean white people, including women, shouldn't care about it, because we all should, and it doesn't mean black women and men are wrong to be resentful of white women and men over it; they're not. I'd be resentful too.
But putting the blame on (a sector of) feminism and feminists specifically is irrational and unjust. As feminists, white women are blameless for focusing on the gender pay gap.
As white people, on the other hand, we all ought to be giving it our consideration, and trying to change it, if we want to think well of ourselves.
But then I'd say the same of people of color and the gender pay gap. As activists for racial equality, I don't expect PoCs to address the gender pay gap at all, even though it effects approximately half of PoCs. But as people, I think they ought to be giving it their consideration, and trying to change it, if they want to think well of themselves. Yet what I've just said would still be taken as a provocative and unreasonable expectation by a lot of people.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-09-09 07:51 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-09-09 07:56 am (UTC)(link)When I said "As white people, on the other hand, we all ought to be giving it our consideration," I meant to say "we all ought to be giving the racial pay gap our consideration." I think you could probably have figured that based on the rest of my comment, but since it is sort of the crux of my comment, I want to make sure it's clear.
Kay. Bedtime. Before I see anything else I've completely failed to articulate.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-09-09 05:08 pm (UTC)(link)(No worries, I understood that sentence from context!)
But putting the blame on (a sector of) feminism and feminists specifically is irrational and unjust. As feminists, white women are blameless for focusing on the gender pay gap.
I actually (mostly) agree. I don't have resentment or blame for feminism here, except on one point, which is the misleading name. See, I don't think the term white feminism is necessarily mean-spirited or blameful (of course, it really depends on who uses it and how) -- to me, it's just descriptive: describing feminism as a movement. Just saying "feminism" makes the movement seem like it is race-neutral or for all races. However, if you look at the movement, it has for I think almost all of its history been a white woman's movement. WHICH ISN'T BAD. White women 100% deserve and NEED a movement and platform that advances their interests over that of others. And I do believe that when white women make gains, those gains DO spread to ALL WOMEN* (although some people disagree with me here). But the movement is not as un-racialized as the term "feminism" would imply.
When it comes to the intersection of race and gender, obviously feminists choose gender (like you said, that's a mark of feminism, period, not white feminism). However, this may make black women feel alienated from the movement, like it's not their team. Like you said, "As activists for racial equality, I don't expect PoCs to address the gender pay gap at all, even though it effects approximately half of PoCs. But as people, I think they ought to be giving it their consideration, and trying to change it" -- I think this is right. However, this puts black women fighting for the gender pay gap somewhat in between the status of "feminist ally" and "feminist" i.e. they are not the primary benefactor of those efforts, but they may still feel it's worthwhile to throw their support behind the cause as an ally. So just like I think white women 100% deserve and need and have a movement for themselves, black women deserve and need one too, but sometimes the feminist movement is not that thing. Hence why it may better be described as white feminism.
So basically, when people "accuse" feminism of being "white feminism" I'm just like, "Yep, correct." What's wrong with a special interest group for white women? Are they not a group of people who have needs for social justice and change? Just because they have racial privilege doesn't mean they don't have gender issues worth talking about. I don't think "white feminism" is really an accusation or blame (although, again, some people may use it that way); however I do think having a reaction to your movement being called "white feminism" along the lines of "No no no, YOU'RE wrong, feminism is for EVERYONE" is the more insulting, dismissive, and incorrect thing to say IMO. I prefer calling things what they are, and to me feminism could very easily be called white feminism, because the label fits. It doesn't mean feminism is discredited. It just means black feminists sometimes feel out of place there, just like a black person may feel out of place working at a company where everyone else is white. Saying, "No this company is for ALL RACES" when it's culturally white is just saying that their discomfort is unwarranted and irrational.
* For example, feminism's push for women to enter the workplace and be given the same long-term career opportunities that men have is most certainly not a women's issue but a white women's issue -- black women always worked outside the home (even were forced to work outside the home) for a living. But I do think increasing the number of women working prestige jobs does elevate the value of women's industry and careers as a whole, and so does indirectly help black women (it also directly helps the higher-class end of black women).