[ SECRET POST #3183 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3183 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 047 secrets from Secret Submission Post #455.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

... How does being interested in having a relationship make someone 'defined by a man'? Everyone else in the group except Steve is *in a relationship*, and it's *Natasha* that is defined by wanting to have something normal and sweet to come home to after a day of ass-kicking?

And I never even really read it as Natasha wanting kids in and of itself, just that she was sad her choice was taken from her. There's nothing wrong with that.

Now, Bruce's assumption that no woman would want to be with him because he can't breed I view as anti-feminist. And hurtful to people who have non-gamma problems conceiving.

Actually, the only characters whose portrayals I really liked was Clint and the twins. Not to say I didn't like the other ones, but a movie can't focus on eight main characters, not in any way that lets them meaningfully grow. Else there would be no time for explosions.

Plus, it's a superhero movie. I watch them because I enjoy seeing improbably powered people punching evildoers in the face. I don't expect to see someone's thesis on gender relations on screen, and as such I find MCU movies have more nuanced and interesting female characters than expected. I'm always rooting for more, but I'm pretty happy with the ones we have.

[(Anonymous)]

I think fun popcorn action movies can avoid being both a thesis on gender relations AND a constant reminder of real-world gender oppression. I don't think it's too much to ask, either.

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't feel she was being oppressed, ignored, sidelined, or stereotyped in any particular way? I mean, yeah, give all the old-fashioned Lois Lane types a skip, but Natasha isn't anything like that. The movie showed all of them in their weak moments. That was the whole point of Wanda's mindfuck, right?

It's just, I feel she gets more backlash for being human than she deserves, and the movie gets more backlash for showing them human than it deserves. I just really, really feel like people are picking it apart like it's supposed to be a gender equality thesis, but only when it comes to Natasha.

If there's something specific you feel is insulting about her characterization and actions, then that's your very valid point, it's just YMMV. I just don't see it.

[(Anonymous)]

So much this. Well put, anon! (Also, for context, I'm both female and a feminist.)

[(Anonymous)]

... How does being interested in having a relationship make someone 'defined by a man'? Everyone else in the group except Steve is *in a relationship*, and it's *Natasha* that is defined by wanting to have something normal and sweet to come home to after a day of ass-kicking?

I think there's an unconscious tendency in feminism where a (correct) structural understanding of the existence of patriarchy and male privilege leads to certain (not always correct) implicit biases and... weightings. Particularly in regard to judgments about men and about hetero relationships. And I think this is one of those instances, where people are more likely to view this kind of relationship trope in a weirdly negative light because of those pre-existing unconscious assumptions. Where there's an underlying bias towards the idea that a hetero relationship is going to lessen the woman involved, or that a man's behavior is going to stem from some sort of privilege or prejudice.

I want to be clear that I think this is a natural thing, not really a morally bad thing or anything like that. It's just the way that people work; it's not unique, it's not a deeply harmful issue, feminism is still basically right, etc. But I think it exists, and sometimes it shows up.

Now, Bruce's assumption that no woman would want to be with him because he can't breed I view as anti-feminist. And hurtful to people who have non-gamma problems conceiving.

And this is maybe another example. To me, his assumption is perhaps drawing from ideas that are patriarchal and inconsistent with feminism. I have difficulty viewing it as 'anti-feminist' and I think it is something people can be empathetic about, even if it is a mistaken view. It is certainly understandable how it could emerge, to me.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, I don't think I was very clear about that last part. He seemed dismissive of Natasha's right to make that choice, which is what I viewed as anti-feminist. If he'd said it in a way that implied 'I want you to make a choice with all the details', that would be different. Even feeling like it would likely be a deal-breaker would be understandable, and I empathize with that. It's how he phrased it that bothered me, not the idea itself.

As for the rest... I do understand that, but I feel an action movie is perhaps not the best place to explore that. I also don't like the implication that men are allowed to want a family, but that it's unfeminist for a woman to want the same. Every other character besides Hill, and possibly Fury, is either in a relationship or wants one. Even the doctor. But Natasha's the only one that's weak for it? Oh, and the twins. They're not looking for love. They do have a family, though, so the same thing sort of applies.

[(Anonymous)]

Fair enough, really.

I also don't like the implication that men are allowed to want a family, but that it's unfeminist for a woman to want the same.

I profoundly agree with this statement & apologize if I implied anything else.

[(Anonymous)]

No, you didn't. I was simply clarifying my own position there. It's my main argument against people describing Natasha as anti-feminist. I understand the weighting, I do, but... That's just a little too far, and I get rant-y sometimes.

[(Anonymous)]

"Now, Bruce's assumption that no woman would want to be with him because he can't breed I view as anti-feminist. And hurtful to people who have non-gamma problems conceiving."

Or, that Bruce wants to have kids and feels bad that he can't. And he puts that much weight into that he thinks his partners would as well. Bruce seems to really like children and even in the first Avengers there are hints at this. It would make sense.

[(Anonymous)]

Don't you know? Yr only allowed to feel bad about things + be in pain if your feminist credentials are up-to-date

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Fair enough. I'll admit, that was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction for me. It's also probably partly that people not considering adopted or step family members as 'real' members of the family is a hot button for me. Things like 'there will never be a little me running around' makes me wonder if they would love a child less if it was a carbon copy of the other parent, or even a throwback to previous generations.

I got to watch the wonder in a six-year-old foster child's eyes when I insisted that he was as much family as the blood relatives because he belonged to my great-aunt and uncle, even though we all knew he was being moved to a different family with younger foster parents in a week. It's not something I'll ever forget, and nor do I want to. But I know others don't feel the same, and it makes me sad. And occasionally prone to blinders on the issue.

[(Anonymous)]

This. I don't even want children of my own but I can understand how a person could feel hurt and somehow defective if they DID want children but had that option taken away from them.