[ SECRET POST #3200 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3200 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 009 secrets from Secret Submission Post #457.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Toxic Masculinity

[(Anonymous)]

Of course they do. Someone can have none of the traits listed and be masculine, or have all of them and be feminine. This isn't like getting a passport, where you need one thing from each of three lists, or like a Cosmo quiz, where a point total tells you where you fall, or like chemistry, where everything over a 7 is basic and anything under is acidic. It's simply an inexhaustive list of traits traditionally considered masculine. Any time *anyone* exhibits traits traditionally considered masculine, they are exhibiting masculinity. It seems like you're saying I said only cis, het males with all those traits are masculine, when my point was actually the opposite.

Masculine traits are considered masculine because there's a high correlation between them and being male. And yes, a lot of that is social conditioning. However, correlation is not causation, and it never has been. Someone's gender is not and should not be based on concepts like masculinity and femininity.

As well, by taking away the context of the original question my whole argument becomes moot. Does non-toxic masculinity exist? My point was that unless masculinity is so narrowly defined that every trait is negative, it must. That certainly doesn't mean all masculinity is non-toxic. It doesn't even mean most. It simply means there is room for *anyone*, male, female, non-binary, *anyone*, to exhibit non-toxic masculinity. Whether they are toxic or not is then entirely up to the person, and not assumed or excused due to gender.

Context is important. Specifically, it's important to that question. Your answer implies that it is simplistic to the extreme and irrelevant. By itself, I would agree. In context, though, it is used to make a point that if someone believes only toxic traits are masculine, then all masculinity would be toxic. Your answer is vague enough that it could mean many things, but I think, in context, it means that masculinity is a fluid concept, changing not only person to person, but situation to situation. Your use of the word 'sometimes' implies that you don't consider all masculine behaviour toxic (to use my wording) or violent (to use yours).

Your definition is nebulous enough to make any discussion or debate on the inherent toxicity of masculinity pointless, as it takes away anything that could be applied across the board and replaces it with entirely different discussions that are not applicable to the question at hand.

As for your last point, I wholeheartedly agree. I just don't believe assuming all masculinity is toxic is the correct way to handle either the violence or the survivors, as it narrows the focus down to a specific group of violent people, wraps some nonviolent ones up with them (who may well be victims), and blames all the violence on them.

Re: Toxic Masculinity

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Your definition is nebulous enough to make any discussion or debate on the inherent toxicity of masculinity pointless, as it takes away anything that could be applied across the board and replaces it with entirely different discussions that are not applicable to the question at hand.

No, it just means that you can't attempt to theorize about me (and people like me) without our active participation. It is not our responsibility to disappear into the closet so you can make "across the board" generalizations.

Re: Toxic Masculinity

[(Anonymous)]

'Masculinity is inherently toxic.' That is: an "across the board" generalization. That is also the point I'm arguing *against*. Because it can only be true if 'masculinity' is so narrowly defined that the word is useless. I am not saying all masculinity is non toxic either. I am not saying masculinity is only applicable to certain people who behave certain ways. In fact, I went out of my way to say the opposite. I have at no point said that the traits I gave were the only ones, or that they belong to specific people. My only comment on relation to gender was correlation vs causation, and was in response to you, and I've never mentioned sexual orientation.

Your response was first to flat out state that alternative masculinities exist, without elaborating at all. Then you made a comment that reads as 'people are people and just act like people, sometimes in violent manners'. So which is it? Especially since I made the same argument as your second one.

So what exactly am I doing so wrong that you feel I'm ignoring you? If I offended, what caused it? I can't fix anything, including my way of thinking, if you don't show me.

You want to participate? Go for it. I might be the only one still looking, but I am still looking. Help me see what you think I'm so obviously missing. Give me your definition of masculinity, or even a few of the other ones you mentioned. And then tell me if all masculinity is inherently toxic. Because that is the question here before us.

It's frustrating, because to me it looks like we're making the same arguments, but are using two different languages to do so. Is that it? Am I wording things poorly? In the context of this discussion, do my words not mean what they do in the dictionary? Language seems to be changing so quickly around these three things (gender, orientation, and ideology) that I learn new ones every week.

Re: Toxic Masculinity

[(Anonymous)]

I read this comment out of context of the debate as a passing flatmemer, but just wanted to say +1 to your ideas about what masculinity is and its loose relationship to gender. And its current relationship to toxicity.