Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-02-22 05:06 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-02-22 05:06 pm
[ SECRET POST #413 ]
⌈ Secret Post #413 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 0 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #059.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 ] broken links, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] too big.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-02-23 04:02 am (UTC)(link)I'd say almost as much as Martha was, really. That was my point. Martha isn't better than Rose. That doesn't make her worse. But she's not better. They're both equally good companions.
Martha's blonde comment was the only thing she actually said, but what I meant was, yeah, she has constantly been compared to Rose, so it makes more sense that when the two of them meet, it's Martha, and not Rose, who's going to be cold, and possibly quite snipey with "The Other Woman" because that's all Martha knows her as--the eternal cock-block.
The last time we saw Rose, she was sobbing on a beach. The last time we saw Martha she was kicking alien arse.
And here we come to the single most annoying/disgusting Martha vs. Rose arguement that always seems to crop up when the subject is broached.
The last time we saw Rose, she was saying goodbye forever to a man that she truly, genuinely loved--and not in a purely romantic way--that she would never be able to see again.
The last time we saw Martha, she was on the show where everyone gets to have lots of kinky sex and fight aliens.
And what the heck is this "Rose had to be torn away." How does that make it immature? Jamie had to be "torn away" as did Zoe, and no one ever complains about them or says that it makes them immature or annoying and clingy. Some people are just passangers along for the ride, some people are companions who just want to stay with the Doctor for as long as they can. I don't see how that decision made her immature.
If Rose can be called immature for wanting to stay with the Doctor forever, when they had a mutual and not-awkward affection for each other, then Martha should be called immature for spending a whole year+ visibly pining after a man who was not interested in her--to the point of sending her the very clear "no, not interested in a relationship right now" sign of chattering about his ex whenever she started trying to make a move (subtle as it may've been).
There's this infuriating double-standard when judging the two companions. I don't find Rose any more self-absorbed, whiny, or, good-grief, clingy than Martha.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-02-23 04:05 am (UTC)(link)no subject
There's no saying that Jamie or Zoe wouldn't have left eventually. Rose was under the illusion that they'd stay together forever. Choosing him over her family, over a new, wonderful life. She let him define her. Almost every other companions has chosen to leave.
...How is Martha self-absorbed? She puts other people ahead of her constantly, that's her problem. Yes, the unrequited love thing was irritating, but the Doctor gave her mixed signals, made her feel second best, kept her at a distance - of course that was going to have a negative effect. If anyone was self-absorbed, it was the Doctor.
I don't tend to compare them. I just get irritated when people forget that Rose was far more unhealthily attached to the Doctor than Martha. She was more immature. She was less skilled.
Personally? I think Martha was better at being a companion, if not a better person. That doesn't mean I hate Rose, or think people stupid for preferring her. That's just my opinion.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-02-23 06:20 am (UTC)(link)And I don't see how it's such a bad thing that Rose "chose him over her family" (read: two people, Jackie and Mickey). People do that when they grow up. A lot of people move away, to another city, state, or even a country, because they find something that's important to them over there, be it a job, lover, or a life. That's not unhealthy. It's a kind of growing up. I mean, not everyone grows up like that, but a lot of people do.
I don't think Rose was really under the illusion they were going to be together forever. She said it, but I don't think she meant it as literally as people seem to think she meant it. When she said forever, I thought it was pretty clear that she knew "forever" meant "as long as she could give him." She knew it was a dangerous life, that either one of them could die (probably her), and that even if that didn't happen, one day, she'd reach a point where she couldn't do it anymore. But at the age of 21, standing with the man you love, who loves you back, looking out at the universe, what else would you think to say? "We'll be together until we're not?" Life in the TARDIS is always inconsistant, and she knew that.
"Choosing him...over a new, wonderful life." Maybe I'm confused--which new and wonderful life did she choose him over? I thought the new and wonderful life would've been the whole "travelling anywhere/when in the universe and having mad adventures with your best friend."
The companions chose to leave when they'd had enough or when they found something better. Rose hadn't had enough or found something better yet. It seems as simple as that.
I wasn't saying that Martha was self-absorbed, I was saying that I didn't see how Rose was any more self-absorbed than Martha. I truly don't. Actually, I think it's a bit of a flaw in the writing that they're alike in all the wrong ways.
Honestly, though, I think that if anyone's relationship with the Doctor was unhealthy, it was Martha. Rose and the Doctor seemed good--they got on well, loved each other (and again, I don't mean that romantically), forgave each other, and just...clicked. Maybe it was actor chemistry. But I don't think Rose let the Doctor "define" her--he was a big part of her life, and his showing up woke her out of a rut and helped her to realize things about herself. It did Mickey.
Martha, well, there you go with the unrequinted love thing. That was crazy-unhealthy. And yeah, she finally decided it was and left, but still, for a whole season we saw her telling people how she loved him and it sucked because he didn't love her back. And for that whole season, she couldn't get over it, to the point where it just confused me, because she seemed like a strong, incredibly together woman. Martha wasn't attatched, I guess, but it seemed a lot more unhealthy to me, like it festered.
AI don't see her as being less skilled, either. Unless you mean that Martha was an almost-doctor.
no subject
Don't forget her dead father. Rose loved Jackie and Mickey, and the alternate universe showed she was just as hung up on her father as before - which was shoddy writing, I think, but there you are. Another way she seemed to regress in season two.
People do grow up, but it's not often a choice between moving on and "in a different universe where you can never see them ever again". What would she have after leaving the Doctor? I don't think she really saw life AFTER him, which was why she was such a wreck when she was taken from him.
Rose hadn't had enough or found something better yet. It seems as simple as that.
She had her father and Mickey back. She knew they both worked at Torchwood, a much more exciting and fulfilling job than she'd had before.
I wasn't saying that Martha was self-absorbed, I was saying that I didn't see how Rose was any more self-absorbed than Martha.
Ahh, I misread. I think Rose could be, quite a bit - especially in regards to Mickey. She had moments of such empathy, and then her behaviour with those close to her was jarring.
Honestly, though, I think that if anyone's relationship with the Doctor was unhealthy, it was Martha.
I will agree it was unhealthy - Martha came out a stronger person, but I think that was despite her relationship with the Doctor, rather than because of it. I see his and Rose's as codependent and damaging, though - but I know interpretations differ.
I don't see her as being less skilled, either. Unless you mean that Martha was an almost-doctor.
I think the telling difference is that when there was danger, the Doctor sent Rose away, and told Martha to fight. I don't think Rose could have done the things she did, not as she was then. But then Martha was also older, and more independent.
I hope, when Rose comes back, we see her with that fantastic life, and her handling the Doctor maturely, because she deserves a better ending than the one she got.
(Also, I apologise if I came off snippy before - I've just seen so much on both sides, and it's...just. Yes.)
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-02-23 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)Well, to be fair, I probably don't find that so much a problem because if I were with the Doctor, I doubt that I would probably just be focused on traveling with him for as long as I could. I do think that at least some of the companions operated on the same principal. Not so much "I can't live without him" but just not really thinking that far ahead--more of the here-and-now. And eventually, they would come to a point when they realized "yeah, I'm done here" and then they'd find the next stage in their life. Rose didn't get to that point.
I think now I get what you (and others) mean by her being too hung up on the Doctor. I'm not sure I agree (or that I agree with it being quite so negative, at least), but I get it. Yay for nice people with a different opinion explaining things civilly! Thank you.
She had her father and Mickey back. She knew they both worked at Torchwood, a much more exciting and fulfilling job than she'd had before.
She did. I just don't think that was something better to her. Again, in Pete's World, she'd be going for her mother and Mickey (I really just can't count AU Pete. I can't see him being any kind of a father, and I doubt she really would've thought that either). Her mother and Mickey weren't enough to make her stay anywhere anyway, and exciting and fufilling as Torchwood may've been, it still probably didn't seem half so much as travelling in the TARDIS. So it was something good, but not better. She just wasn't ready to leave yet.
I see his and Rose's as codependent and damaging, though - but I know interpretations differ.
I guess codependent is a pretty good way to describe it, but I think that's what I liked about them. They just fit so nicely. I can see what you mean by damaging if neither of them can move on, but if Rose comes back kicking tail and taking names, then we'll know she, at least, did, in which case, I wouldn't say it was really damaging, just that it was such a big part of her life that it took her awhile to get over him. (Remember, he was kind of a father figure too--at least, Nine was-- and more of one than AU Pete could ever be. Which adds a whole new level of disturbing to the relationship, sure, but some of us love it for its screwed-up-fluffiness.)
I think the telling difference is that when there was danger, the Doctor sent Rose away, and told Martha to fight.
I think that was less speaking to Rose's lack of skill and more towards the Doctor's feelings of overprotectiveness. He latched onto her after Gallifry. That whole "save the world but lose you" thing. Which I guess could be another mark in the "unhealthy" category, or just a simple character/relationship flaw. It could hinder her effectiveness, but Rose never let him send her away--she always came back to the fight.
I think what bugged me a lot during season three was that most the stuff Martha was doing, I could see Rose doing just as easily. There's the whole trek around the world, but I think that's an instance of "the spaceship moves at the speed of plot"--whichever companion the Doctor had with him at the time, Martha, Rose, Peri, or even Adric would've had to do it, or else the story would've failed.
I hope, when Rose comes back, we see her with that fantastic life, and her handling the Doctor maturely, because she deserves a better ending than the one she got.
Well, we agree on that certainly. I heard that she might not even actually encounter the Doctor, that it's just going to be her, Donna, and Martha. I do hope the girls get along and that RTD doesn't write a catfight. I want better for both of them then that.
I guess I should apologize too. It's hard not to get snippy (I'm probe to being a jerk). I'll admit, for some reason, I identify with Rose way more than I thought I would, and I always thought her relationship with the Doctor was absolutely beautiful. I get defensive about that waaaayyy too easily. Sorry.
no subject
*nods* I think my problem was more with Rose's arc than Rose herself, really - they didn't let her get to that point, which irritated me.
I think now I get what you (and others) mean by her being too hung up on the Doctor. I'm not sure I agree (or that I agree with it being quite so negative, at least), but I get it. Yay for nice people with a different opinion explaining things civilly! Thank you.
*grin* You're very welcome! I'm glad I managed to get my point across. It's lovely when people make each other think - it's possible I'm just too mired in the negative aspects at this point. I did enjoy Nine and Rose's relationship.
I think that was less speaking to Rose's lack of skill and more towards the Doctor's feelings of overprotectiveness. He latched onto her after Gallifry.
That's true, yeah - and we did get to see Rose taking matters into her own hands sometimes. The problem, with me, was that she tended to shine when she was away from the Doctor. ...Same for Martha, really. I like them both better apart from Ten, generally.
Which adds a whole new level of disturbing to the relationship, sure, but some of us love it for its screwed-up-fluffiness.)
Heh. That's - somehow assuring, really, because I see so many people whitewashing it, and...they had their issues, no matter how you look at it. (And goodness knows my ships have them, too. Five/Turlough=news stand.)
...Okay, now I want to see Adric going commando and walking the Earth. XD
I do hope the girls get along and that RTD doesn't write a catfight. I want better for both of them then that.
RTD is...far too prone to catfights. (Sarah Jane? Really? REALLY?) I wouldn't mind some tension, but...grown women, here. Please remember. I was so relieved when Martha didn't end up in any on Torchwood.
:) I understand that. I'm rather overprotective of Martha, myself. And really, there seems to be something about Rose that makes you want to defend her.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-02-25 03:31 am (UTC)(link)I like them both better apart from Ten, generally.
I think the debate's concluded, but it's also made me realize something about Ten. He's a dick. Even with Rose, the reason I liked Nine and Rose better was because it felt like Ten loved her because he felt like maybe he should, so he wasn't always very good at it. It's weird, because Nine and Six are my favorites, and they're well-known for being jerks, but really, Ten's so much more of one. Six basically came on the scene with a puffed-out chest, shouting very loudly, "Hello! I'm an arrogant, blunt, pompous jerk!" but all the bluster just hid the squishy marshmallow center, so to speak. Same with Nine, all sharp corners and broodiness, hiding that intense love for everything. Ten still has the love and all, but not as much--he's self-absorbed and cold once you get past the exuberant exterior. A little creepy.
I still like him... but it's a bit dampened now.
Something tells me I'm not saying anything you don't already know, but this little discussion kind of resulted in that epiphany.
This'll sound weird (especially since I was so worried that this exchange would result in wank) and I don't usually ask, because it always seems so stalker to me, but you seem really cool and smart and nifty, so...would it be okay if I friended you?
no subject
:D Yes! I love Nine and Six to death, for that very reason - hard on the outside, soft on the inside, but Ten is like the opposite, so he reels you in and then you realise he's an arse, really. I always got the impression that he used people, instead of having them help him, and him helping them in return.
Definitely! I'd like that. I was going to ask, but...I'm the same way about friending.