fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3261 ]

[ SECRET POST #3261 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3261 ⌋

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So in a writing circle I've been in for a while there's been a disagreement. One person, who has the most written and involved story of all of us, has a one character in her story who at the beginning was a bully to some of the main characters. After character development (that involved their attitude having consequences and knocking them down a peg or two) they end up befriending their victims when they got older and becoming a part of the team. There's been tons of onscreen character development for them. We saw some of their bullying early on and most of it was implied.

There are a few people in the group who can't seem to let the characters' past go. They take offense to anything good happening to them and when anything positive happens then they're complaining or grumbling about them getting things they don't deserve. Complaints of "easily forgiven" and "Mary Sue" are usual.

They once claimed it was offensive and the author should 'listen to victims of bullying'. At least until the rest of us speak up and point out story evidence of the characters' development. Then that goes out the window.

I got just about tired of their complaining today about the "universe handing them things" and told them "Maybe the universe cares more about who they are now then who they were as a kid."

So, F!S, what do you feel about redeeming bully characters? Personally I think it's backwards-ass bullshit to be all "NEVER FORGIVE NEVER FORGET" to a character that was a bully at one point no matter how much they try to change since. How are they supposed to change or even have reason to if no one will get past when they show positive steps and a willingness to change?

I'm personally of the mind that nearly any character can be redeemed given sufficient development, and I also think that most people IRL can achieve redemption.

Have the people objecting in your group been bullied in the past? It seems like they might be taking this a bit more personally than they should.

Yeah, but then again so have I and some of the others in our group.

That seems to be the case.

I have, as well, and wound up befriending one of my bullies later in life, so that's part of what informs my perspective.

If their experience still feels raw to them, it's probably just hitting close to home in a really bad way. I don't think there's anything wrong with what your friend has done with that particular character, though.

AYRT

(Anonymous) - 2015-12-09 02:13 (UTC) - Expand

Those people sound like they're projecting so hard they could be several IMAX theaters each.

I'd ignore them. If they're so confident that it's "unrealistic" to have people change, it sounds like they are firmly believing and unwilling to change from having the mindset of a victimized child themselves. After all, people can't change. So it's not worth the time to argue with those.

Those people sound like they're projecting so hard they could be several IMAX theaters each.

Haha, I loved this :D.

Yeah, I'm with the others here. There are real life stories of people who've redeemed themselves or who've been able to forgive things you normally wouldn't expect them to forgive.

If a character who was bullied was the type who couldn't manage to forgive, certainly, that attitude would make sense for them, and if the bully's "turn over a new leaf" transition wasn't very believably written or something, that'd be one thing.

But if the character who was bullied is the sort who can find forgiveness, who wants to make peace, and if the bully is one who shows genuine remorse and regret for their actions, then I don't see the problem. I find stories like that amazing in a good way.

Projecting is what I'm thinking. I'd understand being bothered if the character continued to behave in a bullying way but they don't really. They seem like someone who had a bad attitude as a kid, but real life consequences knocked that out of them and they want to start again.

Honestly it seems that either your friends are the problem, or the redemption was badly written/presented.

Failing that I'd wager the group is very young, because in real life it's actually not uncommon that people grow that way.

Personally I thought it was fine. Some of us are high school age and some are college age.

So it sounds pretty likely age plays at least part of a factor, then.

It sounds like they're an age where they might be currently being bullied, and lack the perspective of someone who knows life continues on after school.

Not that bullying isn't a big problem, because it is, but someone talking about bullying who is 25 is going to look at it differently from someone who is 16 and where HS seems like the whole world.

Re: Writing Argument-Redeemed Bully Character

kallanda_lee - 2015-12-09 02:23 (UTC) - Expand

Ignore them. I believe in redemption. I'm personally not interested in reading about a bully being redeemed because I try to avoid bully characters altogether. It can be triggering for me. But that's my own personal issue and I'm not about to tell an author they can't redeem a bully. That's ridiculous.

I fully understand. I have words that make me cringe when used casually because they were things I was called but I don't go around telling people to stop using them. My friends do it because they respect me.

I think it really depends on the extent of the bullying, the details of the interaction, and the circumstances which lead/contribute to the bullying itself. It also depends on how well you detailed the response of the character on the receiving end of the abuse.

If the circumstances the characters all find themselves in are extreme or highly stressful and there are clear outside influences that readers can pinpoint that are contributing to the behaviour (or that are revealed later), that can make a bully character more sympathetic. For example: bully son has abusive bully father, or bully character is being goaded into bullying by a character that hates the character on the receiving end of the bullying. Alternatively, both characters are in prison or some sort of other confinement situation (zombie apocalypse, etc) and the external environment contributes to poor behaviour which that character comes to regret.

You also have to let readers know that the character who is being bullied has a reason to forgive that person. Maybe they're aware of the above, maybe they initially see it as an opportunity for revenge that later becomes genuine friendship, maybe they have worse enemies to consider and could really use the ally/personal protection. Anything that allows the reader to follow the rationale.

In situations where abuse is systemic (again, prison for example), it's also acceptable to have a bully character even somewhat remain a bully and still be redeemed just by realizing they've gone too far or turning around and defending the person they bullied. This situation can also be interesting if you take it in the direction of a Stockholm syndrome type of relationship- as long as you make sure to make your bully character sympathetic enough that the reader has a reason to root for them.

If you're deficient in any of these areas, then the majority of readers are just going to project their own experiences onto it and ignore the characters' experiences. In some cases that might be what you're going for, but if you really want an objectively redeemed character you need to do a lot of work as an author to make it clear that this is where you're going with it.

That said, there's no reason to not have a morally grey character. That might even be more interesting than a full redemption.

People can definitely change. But the befriending the victims thing does make me question it, a little bit. It's hard for people to let that kind of thing go, even if they should. Emotionally, most people don't want to buddy up with their abuser, even if said abuser has changed. And for multiple people do it...

The reuniting takes place years after and a few of the people who went to a private school with the former bully saw what they went through and how it effected them.

Plot played some part in their partnership with the former bully finding something important and it sort of linking to them. They started out having to work together and then managing to learn to work together from there.

People can carry emotional grudges/hurt for decades, and sometimes they don't care if they people who hurt them get hurt. It's ugly, but true. STILL, I could definitely believe some people would be okay with it, especially if the bully character showed remorse, and all.

And tense working relationships can be a lot of fun to read, so that's cool for your friend.

I think it's not just on the bully character, but also on the personality of their victims. Some people are more forgiving, and some people are more willing to forget, whereas some people will simply refuse to give the bully another chance. All of these types of characters are legitimate to write about.

The power of a story is that we can see the process of change the bully undergoes, and the readers are supposed to understand their sincerity. This is something that we obviously cannot experience IRL, because nobody guarantees for us that a change has actually occurred. The students who are resisting are probably projecting very hard, as others have said.

There is, of course, a chance that it wasn't well written, but I'd argue that almost any complex process like this will probably be misconstrued by at least one reader.

Sounds like you're with a group of people who take pride in their victimhood, and the only way to keep that is to make sure that the people who wronged them never get to be better people.

It's a worthless attitude. Ignore them.

It depends on the kind of bullying the character did. There are different degrees of bullying behavior.

The characters were around 11 and 12 and it was tween puberty stuff and "I'm cooler than you" type stuff by a kid who was a bit of a tryhard. Mean but not excessive or shocking for that age range.

Also we find out some stuff like that and worse happened to the bully character when she went to private school and it deeply effected her.

Affected. The word you are looking for is affected.

Re: Writing Argument-Redeemed Bully Character

(Anonymous) - 2015-12-09 02:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Writing Argument-Redeemed Bully Character

(Anonymous) - 2015-12-09 02:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Writing Argument-Redeemed Bully Character

herpymcderp - 2015-12-09 02:46 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Writing Argument-Redeemed Bully Character

lady_dragoon - 2015-12-09 03:18 (UTC) - Expand

the people in the group probably could use a reminder that this a work of fiction. that all the characters are fictional, the bullying was fictional, and that they themselves are NOT the characters.

in roleplay we call this the ooc (out of character) =/= ic (in character) divide. people who don't follow this rule can't distinguish themselves from the fictional character they're playing and often end up getting upset or offended whenever something unpleasant happens to their character. while your group might not be roleplaying, they're definitely writing characters and identifying with them. it sounds like they're identifying with the characters TOO MUCH and, like an anon already mentioned, are projecting hard.

however, there could be other factors coming into play. maybe the development isn't sufficient to them. maybe they actually need to see the former-bully offer an apology to those they bullied or show remorse of some kind before they'll accept it as believable. you might want to communicate with the writers and see what each of them wants out of this project.

I think 99% of people are lying to themselves when they remember their childhood as being cut & dry mean bully vs innocent victim, there's maybe a handful of people in every school to whom that applies– MOST kids growing up alternate between the two roles in an effort to establish themselves socially. I'd wager the people you are arguing with are so cemented in their idea that they were a perfect victim that they can't separate themselves from the concept. people vilify "bullies" as some evil, non-human entity when most of them are socially insecure kids who are probably bullied by others. it's a giant circle of bullying, especially in middle school, to pretend it's black and white is a joke.

I love redemption arcs and would read this shit out of this

(I also love the opposite, good ppl going bad. I love some well written change)

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[ SECRET POST #3261 ]

Writing Argument-Redeemed Bully Character

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AYRT

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AYRT (I keep forgetting to type this)

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AYRT

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