fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3267 ]

[ SECRET POST #3267 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3267 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 050 secrets from Secret Submission Post #467.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - random advertisement for porcelain doves ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

OK, fine! It might be some white Gentile from SoCal. Maybe the casting team are Armenian-Americans. Maybe they're Italian. Maybe they're WASPs!

But there is a stereotype of a bunch of dudes sitting in a room, auditioning an actress, and when she leaves, asking each other, "Would you fuck her?" I can't say they're all Jewish. Maybe they're Irish! They're pigs, anyway.

Anyone want to pile on me for being a radfem now?

"But there is a stereotype of a bunch of dudes sitting in a room,"

Yeah, a bunch of DUDES. Who could theoretically be of any race or ethnicity, but lbr, are most likely a group consisting primarily of WASPs with a handful of token Jews mixed in (because white Christians practically make a hobby of pretending to love Jews up until something happens that they can blame us for).

The fact that you felt the need to specify "white Jewish guys" instead of just "white guys" is really, really telling.

And no, I don't think you're a radfem. I do have good reason to suspect that you're an anti-Semite, however.

I was making a snarky remark about Hollywood producers, one of the most privileged subcultures on Earth, and one which isn't quite as WASPish as some other privileged subcultures. It's not part of some grand conspiracy theory.

I like a lot of Hollywood movies. I just feel free to tweak the subculture's biases. I was mocking that "white Jewish guy" for being full of himself, not for being Hebrew as such.

And maybe the end of Chanukah was a bad time for such a phrasing! But I'm not the Seleucids, Judah, you can put down the hammer.

"I was mocking that "white Jewish guy" for being full of himself, not for being Hebrew as such."

Hahahaha oh my god, do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound here? I bet you wouldn't say that about any other marginalized group. I'm willing to bet that if you saw someone saying about another ethnic/racial (or sexual) minority, what you are now saying about Jews, you'd be livid.

In case you can't see what I'm talking about, this is what you sound like right now:

Person A: "I don't know why [insert show here] does [insert questionable thing here]. Like, we all know it's about what some white gay guy from SoCal thinks should be on the gay agenda."
Person B: "Dude, stop being homophobic. There's no gay agenda, and what you're talking about was most likely the result of decisions made by a straight executive. Even if a gay guy was responsible, perpetuating the myth of a SEKRIT GAY AGENDA is harmful to queer people."
Person A: "I was mocking that "white gay guy" for being full of himself, not for being gay as such. And maybe the end of this week's pride parade was a bad time for such a phrasing! But I'm not one of the gay-bashers, Liberace, you can put down that protest sign."

I never said there was a Jewish agenda. I never said "The Jews" control Hollywood.

I was talking about cultural biases, possibly unthinking biases. (And I kind of regret the "pigs" crack. Maybe that was too far.)

And for the record, I grew up on that "Jewish" New York and Hollywood media, so instead of being some anti-Semite freaking out about da Jooz, I'm actually someone mocking my own culture--my Jewish-influenced American culture.

Nice try.

You may have grown up in a Jewish-influenced American culture, but on a larger scale, you've also grown up in a much older European-influenced culture that has been systematically murdering, marginalizing, demonizing, and generally discriminating against Jewish people since the Middle Ages and before.

You very well may regularly consume Jewish-made media, have been heavily influenced by Jewish culture, and harbour no ill will towards Jews as people. I don't doubt that at all, and I especially don't doubt that if you are indeed a New Yorker. However, that does not mean you can't possibly have absorbed and internalized the many harmful messages about Jews that permeate American culture (and western culture and society in general, this problem goes far, far beyond America). Enjoying a culture's media and being influenced by the trappings of a culture does not make you immune from having an unconscious bias towards the people of that culture. Because despite what you seem to be implying in the above comment, if you are not Jewish, then Jewish culture is not YOUR culture, and no matter how many Jewish influences your culture may have, no matter what the extent of those influences may be, that does not and never will grant you a "Get Out of Having Anti-Semitic Beliefs or Attitudes Free!" card.

Furthermore, if you yourself are not a Jew, you're hardly in any position to call yourself an authority on what is and is not anti-Semitic. Obviously no individual person can be the ultimate infallible authority on the topic; I certainly don't claim to be such. But in addition to actually being Jewish, I am quite well-versed in the history of anti-Semitism and I think it is safe to say that I have more knowledge than the average person when it comes to the subtler ways that anti-Semitism tends to manifest.

That fact that you're so keen to speak of cultural biases but are unwilling to admit you may have some of your own speaks volumes.

I'm done trying to reason with you. Goodnight.

Yes, because what you were doing was clearly reasoning.

nayrt

lol, you didn't even TRY to come up with a counterargument.

el oh el.

Dude, what is your problem?

Fine. I'll start going to shul again, convert, marry someone in the Tribe, give up pork, wear something over my hair, and devote myself to the religion I chose not to convert into the last time I was thinking about it--just so I can be Jewish enough not to win, but just to even almost be heard, in a random internet argument with what is probably a troll.

Or not.

Gevalt.

Oh come on, "token Jews" is a bit of a stretch for an industry founded by giants like Goldwyn, Mayer, and Thalberg, and where the biggest strategic alliance of the 90s was when Spielberg, Katzenberg, and Geffen teamed up. And don't even pretend I'm picking the only six names. Yes, one of the greatest and most uniquely American industries in our country, which has brought immeasurable joy to billions of people, has been built on the efforts of hardworking Jewish visionaries to a disproportionate degree. That's not fucking tokenism. And yes, some of them (Jewish and otherwise) are totally sexist dicks, and always have been.

nayrt

Yeah... an industry that was founded by, no, built from the ground up by Jews, then quickly co-opted by (and currently run mainly by) white Christians.

If Jews really had as much pull in the modern industry as you say, don't ya think there'd be a bit more in the way of positive portrayals of them?

Positive portrayals such as the many, many, many popular Jewish performers who play the leads and heroes in tons of movies? Such as a majority of the famous comedians of the 20th century? What exactly are you looking for, the Jewish equivalent of Kirk fuckin' Cameron or something?

At what point do you imagine this co-option occurred? When do you think Jewish studio heads were ousted and replaced with Christians? When Eisner took over Disney, maybe? Wait, no, that's the opposite. When Dreamworks SKG was formed as the major new power player? No, that's the opposite too. I guess you're referring to how guys like Sam Goldwyn didn't leave a legacy... no, wait, his grandkids are still producers and performers today.

You are describing a scenario that is not supportable by historical data. Honestly, do you have literally anything to support your version of events?

OP

Aha, um, hello, I'm really sorry people are so upset on a thread on my secret, and I'm just gonna jump in and point out that the Jewish lady getting the most crap of this anon seemed to me to be kind of painting a picture of those people whose experience would be most removed from that of a black American or African actress with very dark skin. Because it's not that Jewish people don't get a lot of shit, but that their experience is very different, and that for some people, there's no representation at all, and those at the top are kicking down like hell.

AYRT

Oh, I can totally see that; intersectionality makes fools of us all, doesn't it? I just object to the implicit erasure involved when someone says Hollywood has "a few token Jews". We can argue over whether that's offensive, but it's definitely factually wrong.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3267 ]

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