[ SECRET POST #3315 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3315 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 060 secrets from Secret Submission Post #474.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

He outright said his dwarves were comparable to Jews and that he based their language on the Semitic languages (like Hebrew and Arabic), so there's that.

[philstar22]

Okay. I hadn't read that quote. Still, it isn't as direct a copy as the OP seems to be saying. Inspired yes. But he made them their own thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Comparable to Jews in what way? Could you post the exact quote? Because there are a million ways to interpret that. Because of their movements? Their language? Their what? Because saying dwarves = Jews is still a massive stretch.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Quote:

"I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations" and "[t]he Dwarves of course are quite obviously--couldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic [...]"

Sources:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/%22Dwarves%20are%20not%20heroes%22%3A%20antisemitism%20and%20the%20Dwarves%20in%20J.R.R....-a0227196960

https://books.google.ca/books?id=B0loOBA3ejIC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=%22at+once+native+and+alien+in+their+habitations%22&source=bl&ots=hiGD7J9g1b&sig=er_UuxyYSyL0Bju5zvOQw8-d_2o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilpJ3d-9TKAhUJeT4KHRyZBqMQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=%22at%20once%20native%20and%20alien%20in%20their%20habitations%22&f=false

http://thejewniverse.com/2011/the-jews-of-lord-of-the-rings/

It's really not that much of a stretch if you're at all familiar with history.

[philstar22]

Right. But that's still just inspiration and a few small similarities. That isn't a direct copy. He's not saying that at all here.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

I never claimed that he said they they were a direct copy. Not sure where you're getting that from.

[philstar22]

Because that's what the OP was saying. And because all the person you were responding to was disagreeing with was the idea of dwarves as a direct copy. That's what they called a stretch. So if you weren't saying that, I'm not sure why you even disagreed with them.

[(Anonymous)]

Because... it's not a stretch? Perhaps I misinterpreted what the anon I responded to was saying, but I got the impression that they thought it's a stretch to say that the dwarves MIGHT have been based on Jews.

There are several elements of dwarvish culture and history that are remarkably similar to elements of Jewish culture and history, and Tolkien admitted that their language was inspired by the Semitic languages and that he thought there were parallels. It's not a stretch at all. That's what I was arguing.

[philstar22]

I don't know. Maybe we're all using terms differently? I thought they were disagreeing with them being a direct copy not about there being the inspiration.

I guess I wouldn't personally use "based on." I think inspiration fits better. To me based on denotes a closer copy than I actually think we have.

[(Anonymous)]

But I think it's still pretty clear that they're allegorically Jews - they have a culture that draws on Jewishness and Judaism in European culture.

[(Anonymous)]

NOT allegorically Jews, I mean to say

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

From what I've heard, Tolkien wasn't a fan of allegory in general, but that's never stopped people from interpreting his works as allegories for whatever. Death of the author, y'know.

[(Anonymous)]

those interpretations are wrong, both because Tolkien disclaimed them and because they are insupportable with reference to the texts

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

"because Tolkien disclaimed them"

Hence death of the author.

"because they are insupportable with reference to the texts"

That depends on exactly which interpretations you're referring to. If it's the popular idea of LotR as an allegory for WWII, then yeah, that's a crock of shit (and not just because LotR predates WWII).

[(Anonymous)]

I am fairly confident that no allegorical interpretation of LotR is coherent, assuming that we're using 'allegorical' in something like the sense that Tolkien himself used it in