[ SECRET POST #3317 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3317 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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05.
[D.Gray-man - Miranda Lotto]


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06.
[The Thick of It]


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07.
[Golden Kamui]


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08.
(The Lost Boys)


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09.
[Marble Hornets/troyhasacamera]


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11.
[@midnight with Chris Hardwick]



















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 037 secrets from Secret Submission Post #474.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I loooove how non-writers are the ones who're insisting kudos are worth something, and when authors tell you otherwise you get butthurt defensive because "Oh no! My clicking a button /doesn't/ actually mean much to you? But it has to! It only takes a second, as opposed to the sixty seconds it will take to leave a review!"

*snorts* Many authors don't put much stock in kudos. But you would rather call the author stuck-up and selfish than do what will actually make them happy. Because god forbid you waste 59 seconds of your life commenting on a fic you enjoyed, amirite?

I used to write fic (not anymore, I'm more focused on art now) but I was always very unimpressed with the kudos system. Some of you folk seem to think I should be on-my-knees-grateful that you clicked a button and gave me a kudos for that 50K story I busted my ass to share with you. I wasn't. Moses himself could have given me a kudos and I wouldn't have realized it. Comments, though? I /treasured/ them. Responded to each and every one of them, read them over and over whenever I needed a confidence boost or motivation.

It seems to some people, us desiring comments is the equivalent of us asking you to go on quest to slaughter a dragon and bring back its heart. Hell, the way some of you sounded, it seems as if you'd rather do that instead.

It makes me damn grateful I stopped uploading fic. Fanart is more widely appreciated, at least, and the fans actually respect the artists. They aren't shy about leaving praise, either.


Lesson of the day: nothing in life is free. not even in fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt/

I write. But I'm not a BNF who feels entitled to (a high number of) comments only, so I appreciate knowing I have readers who enjoy my writing in whatever way they choose to let me know, be it kudos or comments. That's probably the difference here.

But you are right in one thing: fanart is far more appreciated. You can even mooch off other's people copyright for money!

[hwc]

I don't understand this hatred for kudos. How is a kudos any different from "I like it"? Writing the comment takes only marginally more time than hitting a button, so that can't be why it's more valued.

Honestly, I appreciate AO3's kudos system. It's incredibly convenient for readers and means that as a writer, I get feedback even years down the road. Let's face it, without the kudos button people wouldn't comment much more than they do now. But a lot of people hit the kudos button because it's right there and easy to do. It's nice to know that fics I wrote years ago in fandoms I'm not even in anymore still get read and liked.

Comments, though? I /treasured/ them.

This is also an attitude I don't get. I like comments, they are great. And yes, it's a nice confidence boost to read over old comments. But it's also a confidence boost to see that a fic you've almost forgotten has 1000+ kudos. (Also, going by comments, 30 have liked that fic. Going by kudos, over a 1000 people have liked that same fic. That latter number is a better confidence boost for me than the comments, ngl.)

[ketita]

without the kudos button people wouldn't comment much more than they do now

I'm not sure that's true. It has to do more with the commenting tradition etc., but I consistently get a higher percentage of comments on ff.net than on ao3, even today. More comments for fewer views, too.

For example, one fic I posted relatively recently on ff.net and ao3, on ao3 I have 32 comments for 3362 views. On ff.net, I have 28 comments for 1389 views. That's about 1 comment for every 100 views on ao3, vs. 1 comment for every 50 views on ff.net. Clearly, there is a cultural difference between the two sites regarding leaving comments, and this is consistent across all of my fics that I've posted on both.

As for numbers - I get what ayrt is saying. While I will sometimes go look at the numbers and be like "whee, look at this number", a much more powerful motivator for me is going back and reading responses, which reminds me what people liked and didn't like and how excited they were. I remember specific commenters and the conversations we've had. It's much more personal and long-lasting for me than a kudos is - I won't go back and be like "ah yes, I remember when [user] left me that kudo! what a great kudo that was".

[hwc]

My fics on FFN have more comments as well (though in my case it's always an unfair comparison as I have mostly fics written for anime fandoms, and those have always been AO3's red-headed stepchildren), but I put that down to a different commenting culture on the site. For example, I get a lot more "thank you for writing this" comments on FFN than AO3.

That culture is specific to the site though, IMO. So even if you remove the kudos button (or didn't have it implemented in the first place) I don't think it would make that much difference in the number of comments.

Do you go back and think "oh, I remember when [user] said they liked the fic - that was great!"? That's what kudos basically are for me - "I like it" comments. Whether I get those as comments or kudos doesn't really matter. The specific comments I remember and are the longer, more detailed ones. And those aren't the ones that people substitute with kudos anyway.

Maybe it's different for me because comments have never motivated me to write, anyway. They are nice to get and for the first few hours after posting I'm anxiously awaiting the first reactions, but after that I just lose interest. Getting AO3's daily kudos notification and seeing a kudos for an old fic is just as lovely to me as getting a review for the same fic. It's less "someone liked it enough to comment" for me and more "someone is still interested in this old fic!".

(The most valued reader feedback for me are actually bookmarks. I sort by bookmarks to find fic on AO3, so I place more importance on them than on kudos or comments, lol.)

[ketita]

I do think though that comments are especially meaningful in chaptered fics. Because you know who the usual commenters are, you get to see how they respond to each chapter, and it opens room for interaction.
More than that, kudos can only be left once per fic - with comments, you can get an idea for how many people are still reading and still interested.
I would also argue that most commenters don't just write "I like it". I've had lots of detailed comments talking about what they liked the most, or how the fic affected them, etc. But even if it's simple, if I'm rereading comments I'll reread those too - whereas I won't look back and recall who left kudos on a fic.

I agree though that there's validity to all forms of feedback, and I do appreciate all of them. But it's the personal relationships I develop with people who read+comment that make fandom exciting for me.

[hwc]

That's a very good point about chaptered fics. I hadn't considered it because I only post finished fics (I almost never finish WIPs :/), but you're right that comments are really the only way of communicating with authors in a chaptered stories.

I suppose it's just a difference on how we look back at fics. The first thing I do when I look back at the feedback a fic got is to take a look at the kudos. I get a huge kick if I see the name of an author I like in the list. And only then do I reread the comments.

Do you develop relationships with readers on AO3? I feel like that was mostly a LJ-era sort of thing that got lost when authors started posting on AO3, but maybe that's just me.

[ketita]

I've actually had a whole bunch of people that I've gotten friendly with through fic comments. Generally if people leave me chatty comments, I try to chat back, and sometimes this has led to exchanging tumblrs and then skype etc.
The lack of community is part of the reason I fled tumblr, though. So it's not completely lost, but I think that you need to be open to it as an author and be lucky with your reviewers.
It's only really happened with multiparters or people who went through commenting on ALL my fics, though.

[(Anonymous)]

There used to be a lot more of a commenting culture on LJ, and many people attribute part of the reason for the drop off in commenting on AO3 to the ability to leave kudos.

[hwc]

I remember the wank when AO3 first announced the kudos system. I think what people forgot (and forget) to take into account is that on LJ fandom was more community oriented. A lot of the time you didn't just comment on the fic, but also struck up a conversation with the author or other users because you knew each other.

Back in the early beta days of AO3 the comment/kudos ratio was a lot higher, but in those days you only got in if someone who was already a user gave you an invite, so the community aspect was still there, at least in part, so there were more comments. But since AO3 registration is more or less open (currently 1000 people per day) and it's gotten so big that community aspect is completely lost.

[(Anonymous)]

I loooove how non-writers are the ones who're insisting kudos are worth something

Yet another pissy author who doesn't seem to understand that "writer" and "author" are not mutually exclusive sets. Or that you don't speak for all authors.

Some of you folk seem to think I should be on-my-knees-grateful that you clicked a button and gave me a kudos for that 50K story I busted my ass to share with you. I wasn't.

What makes you think your 50K story was good enough that anyone should be grateful for it? Maybe your prose style is offputting. Maybe you bash other people's ships or favorite characters in your fic. Maybe you churn out leaden, preachy issuefic. Maybe you write mundane AUs that take away the most interesting aspects of canon. Maybe your characters' only resemblances to canon characters are their names and appearances (if, indeed, you manage to get their appearances right and don't, say, make the bottom shorter than the top).

It makes me damn grateful I stopped uploading fic.

NGL, yours probably isn't missed.

Fanart is more widely appreciated, at least, and the fans actually respect the artists.

Bwahahahhaa, yeah, reposting without credit or permissions is SO respectful!