fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3376 ]

[ SECRET POST #3376 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3376 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Legolas/Gimli, Lord of the Rings]

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09. [SPOILERS for Life is Strange]

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10. [SPOILERS for Miss Peregrine's Home For Peculiar Children]

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11. [SPOILERS for Daredevil]

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12. [SPOILERS for Daredevil]

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13. [WARNING for dub-con, nsfw, possibly underage?]

["Pawn to Queen", Harry Potter]

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14. [WARNING for assault/violence/etc, rape discussion is probable in comments]

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15. [WARNING for rape]

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16. [WARNING for child abuse]

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17. [WARNING for a whole bunch of things? everything? supposedly]

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18. [WARNING for suicide - or well sort of the opposite but just in case]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #482.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 (nsfw, gif, gay porn) ??? - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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The premarital sex thing is a big one. It always bothered me that Booth on Bones was totally fine with having sex without even bothering to explain it at all. That is a big deal in Catholicism. If he had a reason to think that wasn't supposed to be an actual thing he needed to follow, fine. But it wasn't like he was a casual Catholic. He was pretty seriously religious. So it would have been nice for the writers to explain it.

It's only a big deal in some part of it, because I know a shitton of Catholics having premarital sex.

Catholics who are very religious and talk about the Bible a lot and seem to want to follow the rules in other ways? Honestly curious. Do they just ignore that particular one, or do they give a reason?

Just, I'm from the Protestant side, and generally it seems for us to be one extreme or the other. Seriously religious, more conservatively religious people want to follow everything, even if they don't always actually. More liberal people or less seriously religious people tend to see the Bible as more of an allegory or just about faith and not anything else or that the rules were specific to the era and don't apply the same today.

Well, my point is that someone can be vocal about being a Catholic and not be *very* religious in that sense.

Like, for example, I have a friend who is the daughter of a deacon, she had her first kid out of wedlock, most certainly uses birth control, and is not against abortion even though she would not do it herself. She considers herself religious and even was involved in the organization of the World Youth Days. A LOT of younger Catholics do not in fact agree with everything the Pope says (though Francis is much loved, but there was much more discussion when it was the previous one), and absolutely do question certain teachings. This can be premarital sex, but also same-sex marriage and birth control etc. Religions are not impervious to societal changes.

My point is not everyone follows religion dogmatically.

Edited 2016-04-02 00:35 (UTC)

in my experience Catholics are on average more liberal than Protestants when it comes to stuff like that too (except maybe birth control as a specific issue, some of them get really hung up on that one)

Yeah, raised Catholic in a largely Catholic area here and there is a much higher ratio of women of all ages having kids out of wedlock because in the great sinning hierarchy the premarital sex isn't as bad as the birth control. Which only makes sense if you follow the wonky church logic that the only reason to have sex is procreation, so adding birth control to the mix renders it a pointless self-indulgence. Whereas when I lived among the conservative Protestant types, they seemed to push the "Sex is Evil" meme a lot harder, and the kids out of wedlock thing tended to happen more to the teenagers/younger adults because at that age they're still convinced that the sex is sinful, but less sinful if it "just happens." Using birth control means it was premeditated sin.

Basically, a lot of Christians of all denominations have weird hangups about sex and birth control, and they're not necessarily logically consistent about it.

Not in central Europe. There are some ultra conservative protestant sects but the heavily catholic regions are usually more strict about extramarital sex/dating and abortion.

Huh. Even dating?

Most people in the US have at least gotten over the whole "dating is sinful, you should COURT instead" thing. Really only the quiverfulls and their ilk still cling onto that.

My general understanding of European religious groups is that they are fewer but overall more conservative than in the US. And that some of them are anti-vaxxers, which is the opposite of the US (most religious people here are pro-vax while the anti-vaxxers tend to be new age hippies). How accurate do you think those assessments are?

Uh... it's complicated. The more strongly catholic regions I was referring to would be places like southern Italy. Last time I was in Sicily there was a woman in the community who was shunned because she was unmarried and had a boyfriend. They were more lenient (from what I gathered) toward younger people though. My home stay sister (16 at the time) had a boyfriend, but it was inofficial and not to be talked about. Everyone seemed to know but tried a blind eye.
I live in a region of Germany that ws traditionally protestant since reformation, so being protestant is the default. Our communities are organized around churches (every "quarter" in German towns usual has a church, some have two, one catholic and one protestant.) but there is not much religiosity to be found there, usually. Our block has a Catholic and a protestant community, both churches are usually pretty empty but there are a handful of people who organize all kinds of events in and around the churches. Thee events are pretty popular and so are the services at holidays. That's basically the only time there is a real "community" thing going on. Culturally speaking, there is little to no difference though between catholic and protestant mainstream part time Christians except maybe that catholics tend to believe a bit more literally in god, heaven and hell.
So far for the mainstream.
there are also various sects that are more or less close to or sprouted from either, and there apparently also are communities that are part of the mainstream but more strictly religious. That's where you'll usually find more extreme views on stuff like homosexuality or extramarital sex. One example would be the pentecostal churches which are a protestant church community.
The vaccines or no-thing is also apparently more prevalent in higher educated protestant communities, especially where they merge with reformative Christian movements and alternative medicine that goes along with 1920s worldviews on medicine, nature and spirituality (the steiner schools are kinda notorious for measles outbreaks, though interestingly, from my first hand experience these schools traditionally attract more catholics).
lately, with the Internet, anti vax-sentiments and theories are bleeding out into other social circles though, to the less educated classes where people who used to just do whatever the doctor told them started to just doubt anything "traditionally" accepted and instead believe everything some site with a fancy name tells them. So without knowing exact details, from my everyday experience I'd say in Germany it's more about your personal environment and it's influences than about religion.
(The whole topic is not as strongly politically charged though (or not yet..) which I'm glad of because I've tried to have conversations about vaccines with Americans and it's really... a strange experience. I'm not anti-vax but universal critical and reluctant about unnecessary medical procedures so I skipped a few vaccines like rota and chicken pox for my kid. That's a stance you'll find quite often, without people having any kind of religious affiliation or other strong convictions or the usual pseudoscience autism and whatnot stuff.)
sorry if I'm not making much sense here but I'm sick and trying to type on my phone which always fucks up my structure. Also getting poked and my hair pulled by a 3 year old...

This is a really interesting comment, thanks for sharing your experience! :)

I think Catholicism by nature isn't very 'fundamentalist'. Even priests would interpret the bible in a way that makes sense to modern life rather than just lecture us to follow every word the bible says.

Which idk I guess that seems pretty contrary considering all the rules the vatican has and whatnot.

I know a lot of those, too. One even is a teacher for catholic religion, and boy does she sleep around...

I had a very devoutly Catholic ex who drew a bright but, to me, fairly arbitrary line when it came to premarital sex (not one I know of anyone else drawing - it's usually either all or nothing when it comes to things involving genitals)

He and I never even came close to it, and we only dated very briefly (his being a devout Catholic to the point of zealotry and having some not nice things to say about my non-Catholic beliefs being part of the reason it was so short-lived) but we did discuss it.

He was also staunchly against any form of birth control but indicated that if I were to marry him and chose to go on BC he wouldn't stop me because it'd be my choice. Which, yeah, it would be, except when you're married to someone that sort of thing does kind of become a joint decision and he seemed rather laissez-faire about it for something he was supposed to be really passionate about.

it was pretty odd

Well, the whole maintain your purity before marriage thing has always been inequally applied to men as compared to women. I bet the issue never even occurred to the writers, as it may well not have occurred even to many devout Catholic men.

That's a good point actually. Though, in that case I'd expect the men to say it doesn't apply to them. At least in my experience, seriously religious people don't just shrug. They come up with some reason to justify it, at least in their own mind.

I wouldn't expect men to say it doesn't apply to them. Because while it's true, lots of people aren't comfortable with acknowledging sexist double standards, especially if they're benefiting from them. And like you said, perhaps they've already mentally rationalized it in their heads. In conservative circles, virginity is something that is valued in women, but it's often considered a flaw in men. Men are supposed to want to sow their oats, and while it might technically be a no-no, people are far more inclined to wink and say something, well, boys will be boys, etc.

Booth's character is written as a manly man, a dude's dude. So he has many qualities that would be prized in the ideal man, and being a virgin until he's married simply wouldn't be one of those qualities.

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