[ SECRET POST #3447 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3447 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 56 secrets from Secret Submission Post #493.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

+1

Fandom SJ isn't really about justice; it's about people one-upping other fans and proving themselves morally superior while acting like obnoxious bullies.

[(Anonymous)]

See, this is where it just feels wrong to me. Because, yeah, some people do that, but there are also people have those conversations without being bullies. It seems to me more like people doing that is a problem which develops within the broader category of social justice conversations, not something intrinsic to it. And so, like, when you're talking about Fandom_Wank, or whatever, the community developed an inability to have functional conversations about those topics, but that's not the same as People Started Talking About Social Justice And Therefore It Sucked.

[(Anonymous)]

It didn't get to be that way until they started sipping the SJW Kool-Aid.

[(Anonymous)]

Or maybe people weren't talking about those things and so no one realized that there were actually serious disagreements between people on the comm because they never surfaced? And then once those things were talked about more, people started having arguments about it.

I'm just saying, I think this is a lot more "human social interactions and communities are hard and have a lot of failure states", and less a novel problem or a result of a specific ideological position.

[(Anonymous)]

Nope. The problem with the SJW position vs. disagreements about fandom in general is the SJW shit gives people a sense of moral superiority. It goes from "okay, we don't agree on the interpretation of this particular media but whatever" to "you don't agree with me because you're racist/misogynist/homophobic/etc. and therefore evil and I'm better than you (go kill yourself)."

[(Anonymous)]

Other things also give people a sense of moral superiority! This is my whole point! I agree that it is bad when people take it to that extreme, and use it to act morally superior. I'm uncomfortable with treating it as an inevitable result of talking about social justice and taking social justice seriously.

And I mean, the reaction seems to be that we should never care about those things and they don't matter, and that seems in many ways worse and more wrong. Because at the end of the day, you can apply the label "SJW" to anyone talking about these subjects, and people do.

[(Anonymous)]

Nope. People can claim intellectual superiority over other things, but not moral superiority when there isn't a question of morals in play.

the reaction seems to be that we should never care about those things and they don't matter

Nobody has said that. "Don't be a dick about it" doesn't mean "stop talking about it." Unless you can't talk about it without being a dick, in which case that's your problem.

[sarillia]

It seemed like you were implying that people never talk about it without being assholes. But if not then I feel a lot better about this conversation.

[(Anonymous)]

I think a majority of the people who are doing the talking currently can't do it without being assholes and I wish they'd shut up. The ones who can do it and stay sane and not whip frothing crowds into bullying a fanartist into a suicide attempt? Please, do talk about.

[sarillia]

Works for me.

Though I think there's often some confirmation bias at play when people say this, where they notice and remember the ones being assholes more than the ones who aren't.

[(Anonymous)]

People can easily claim moral superiority over any political view whatsoever. I mean, look at the anarcho-capitalists.

And I don't think anyone ITT is saying that. I think that people more generally are saying it, and if they're not saying it explicitly it's frequently implied. And the way that those two things go together so often is why I'm skeptical of outspoken critique of social justice conversations, because a lot of people don't want to recognize that line, and a lot of people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to any social justice conversation of screaming "SJW!!!" at this point. So, you know, it's frustrating.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, because political views and morals tend to go hand in hand.

It is. And in that case, blame the people who tarnished this line of conversation by being assholes, rather than those who are sick of the topic and would rather stop Schrodinger's Asshole before it develops explosive diarrhea.

[(Anonymous)]

I see where you're coming from but I think the importance of talking about these issues is such that I have to come down on that side of things, you know?

Of course that doesn't justify any kind of death threats or bullying or hounding, those things are completely and unambiguously wrong regardless of who does them. But I'm just not okay with knee-jerk opposition to social justice conversations as the response.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm plenty okay with that knee-jerk reaction because I prefer not to piss off people who could be allies eventually. If they don't want to listen to you, forcing the conversation isn't going to endear them to your cause.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I see where you're coming from but I think the importance of talking about these issues is such that I have to come down on that side of things, you know?

Then prepare to stay frustrated. A fair number of people do not want politics and morality mixed with their fun, and you're only pissing them off.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, yes. That's basically at the root of why people hate social justice conversations. They don't care about politics or morality and they don't want to think critically and seriously about things. But I don't know how much sympathy I can have for that, because the issues exist regardless of whether we're talking about it, and if they just don't care to recognize them, how much respect for that should we have?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm going to try again here...

It's not that they don't CARE ABOUT IT. It's that THERE'S A TIME AND PLACE.

I think it's interesting how you are using the word "we" and "us" in ITT, as though we all have to agree and conform as a group. That's the root of the problem. Social justice conversations are fundamentally about trying to convert people to your religion, your groupthink. I'm sorry to tell you that many people will reject that approach on principle, no matter the topic of conversation.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean "we" in reference to society as a whole, not to social justice people or whatever.

And I can agree that there are times and places, and different people might draw the line differently, but a blanket policy that you should never talk about it when people are having fun seems like it's going too far, and that's exactly what people seem to be advancing. Sometimes you just gotta suck it up and deal with the fact that real life does intrude on fun stuff. It's part of being a grownup. Getting resentful about it is some dumb shit.

[(Anonymous)]

Getting resentful about it is some dumb shit.

Says the killjoy who's so frustrated they can't just preach, preach, preach all the time. OK. Bye now.

[(Anonymous)]

Sometimes you gotta suck it up and deal with the fact that nobody is required to listen to your bullshit. It's part of being a grownup. Getting resentful about it is some dumb shit.

[(Anonymous)]

Other people are not obligated to listen to you or cater to you. People are a lot more likely to listen to someone who isn't acting like an asshole and preaching at them all the time.

[(Anonymous)]

And I mean, the reaction seems to be that we should never care about those things and they don't matter

WTF. Plenty of people care about these things and still prefer to NOT TALK ABOUT THEM.

Social justice is like politics and religion. It used to be considered impolite to discuss these things in mixed company. Especially in fandom spaces, where the whole point is to have fun. Is it really so hard for you to understand that some people just want to enjoy what they enjoy without having to constantly consider the social ramifications?

[quantumreality]

IA that sometimes it felt more like people were looking for ways to out-smartarse each other in shitting on someone, but eh, shit happens.