fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3479 ]

[ SECRET POST #3479 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3479 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Lifetime's UnReal]

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03.

[X-Men movies. Charles/Erik]

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04.

[Andrew Zimmern vs. Anthony Bourdain]

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05.

[Secretary]

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06.

[Stardew Valley]

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07.

[Notre Dame de Paris (French Musical)]

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08.

[Erma]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #497.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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So here's the argument I was given: Sure the women are often fanservicey and often focus so entirely on the male at the centre which is a two big points in the 'Bad' column, but on the other side the women are often much more interesting, much more regularly the focus of the show itself (sure in a 'Male gaze' type way, but also in a 'This is how they are and what drives them'), and have much more obvious developed characters, at least compared to the male who is a blank slate to fill the presumed male viewers male power fantasy, which will not good thing, it does have the bonus of having the largely female cast being more relatable as people.

Thoughts?

OMFG, this is why I can't be a feminist. Whoooooooooooooo caaaaaaaares if some stupid comic is feminist enough.

How does this affect whether you can or can't be a feminist?

Not ayrt obviously, but I think for a lot of us it's shit like this that makes us think: if this is today's feminism, do I really want to be a part of that?

I guess I wouldn't decide whether I care about an ideology based on one person's thoughts, but I see that a lot in regards to a lot of things now.

Basically one person says something dumb (or in this case, talks about something that isn't super important) and the whole group/movement/whatever is ruined. Like every person represents the entire thing.

Re: Is Harem manga / anime more feminist than it seems?

kallanda_lee - 2016-07-13 23:18 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Is Harem manga / anime more feminist than it seems?

(Anonymous) - 2016-07-13 23:18 (UTC) - Expand

Thank you, that is precisely what I meant.

Who cares? Fans of a genre who also have an interest in feminism in media?

I mean, not everyone, but some people might want to discuss it, so quit being a fucking baby?

That isn't the problem here. The problem is that some feminists will jam square pegs into round holes so that they can find a feminist interpretation of anything they like. If a feminist likes a shitty harem anime, she has to write something like this so she won't feel like a bad feminist for liking it.

When actually, the more feminist thing to do is admit that not everything you like is feminist and it's still fine to like it. Sexism isn't going to be solved by pretending things you like are feminist because it suits you.

I mean, do you complain when when someone tries to explore how Breaking Bad fits into a framework of Kantian ethics? Or explores the economic implications of the standard weapon prices in Dungeons and Dragons? Or when someone looks at determinist themes in Sister Carrie?

Some people just like analyzing fiction from perspectives they are invested in or find interesting. I'm not saying that anyone necessarily should try to apply these analyses to every aspect of pop culture and exalt or condemn a genre on that analysis alone. But me, I always liked lit crit. I wish I knew more about harem anime to comment, but I could eat up this kind of a discussion with a spoon.

OMFG, people on the internet have different concerns! Whoooooooooooooo caaaaaaaares whether or not you in particular give a shit?

Yeah I don't support women's equality because someone on the internet is thinking critically about anime!!! Right on sister!

Newsflash! You can support women's equality without aligning yourself with a toxic movement.

Too bad the anti-SJWs are as toxic as the feminists

I don't know, but I don't think that argument is relevant.

Well written female characters =/= automatically feminist work.
Badly written female characters =/= automatically unfeminist work.

I think it's mostly bad

I don't really care

I think it's got a legit point about having a cast of relatable female characters, but definitely not feminist.

You can have a cast of relatable female characters without the stupid sexist baggage of harem anime.

Harem whores are not relatable.

Now that? That is an anti-feminist statement. Unfeminist. Inverted feminism.

I mean, sure, feminism means different things to different people. But you're mocking hypothetical women and calling them whores for being in a "harem" context.

I disagree. There's not really anything feminist about female characters being more interesting than the male lead if the reason for that is to make it easier for the male audience to project themselves onto the fantasy. Also, being more interesting than the male lead is a really, really low standard, so most "more interesting" female characters are still awful characters.

The harem anime that are actually good and that you might be able to call feminist tend to have good writing and good characters all around regardless of whether they're one of the girls, the main character, or someone else.

I would say individual works of harem fiction can be feminist, like Shiina Dark (which is about a bunch of exiled women forming their own nation for the outcast and unwanted.) The genre as a whole can't be called feminist, though.

Mmmhhh...

A counter argument would be that, while female characters in harem manga have interesting personalities, their personalities, goals and dreams tend to either focus or revolve heavily around the MC. Also most of the time the girls tend to see each other as rivals for MCs affections, and the times they do interact it's to either fight over MC or to provide fanservice. They very rarely have a relationship outside of the MC. Also the series tend to sell the girls as waifus for merchandise reasons, and said merchandise usually leans heavily on being VERY fanservicy.

Also adding that feminist can be a broad term and that if something fills certain criteria like a check list, it doesn't makes it more or less something.

Edited 2016-07-14 01:06 (UTC)

This is something I thought about when reading a harem fanfic of a non-harem series. The author was clearly aware that harem fic could be considered sexist, and it seemed like he was doing everything he could to avoid that, but while the characters had clear personalities and interesting traits, they didn't seem to have desires other than the MC's penis. I wasn't sure whether the author failed at what he intended, or the best way he could have avoided the problem while still primarily writing a porny fic for sexy times.

(If anyone cares, the fic's called The Perversion of Haruhi Suzumiya.)

Oh, did the author wanted to write an harem fic, avoid writing one or just write porn for it?

Also imo Harem series can be interesting, but it depends on how the author uses certain tropes and develops the story.

He definitely wanted to write tropey harem porn that referenced and lampshaded harem tropes. It seemed like he was also doing something with what teens are told sex is like vs. what sex is actually like, and the consequences when the fantasy doesn't match the reality, but the story was left incomplete, so that never went anywhere.

The ones I've seen are generally sexist. That doesn't mean they're bad. They can be fun! But there are a lot of stereotypes too that aren't great.

That doesn't mean they have to be sexist. A story about a straight guy surrounded by women, even women who are attractive and available, can be perfectly feminist depending on how the story is handled.

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