fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3608 ]

[ SECRET POST #3608 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3608 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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You get to put on your blog what you like, and your friend is entitled to filter as she likes. That is all there is to it.

I would recommend trying to reach across the aisle as much as possible though. Call Out Culture only alienates and hardens opinions and we now need like blazes the goodwill of those people who have been victims of it if we are to survive Trump/Pence. Continuing to confront, call out, and publicly humiliate them will not help the cause but will increase the number of conservative voters next time. I mean take the Pence Hamilton thing, he was obviously making a gesture, half-assed as it was, and it got slapped back into his face so a chance to build some goodwill has been pissed up the wall there.

Liberals and leftys like ourselves are going to have to learn to take it lying down and show gratitude for gestures for the next four years if we are to soothe emotions and win the moderates back. We need to Call Out the Call Outers.

. I mean take the Pence Hamilton thing, he was obviously making a gesture, half-assed as it was, and it got slapped back into his face

Wasn't he booing them, though? I assumed that's what that was a reaction to.

NAYRT

No, he got booed by the audience. The stuff that it was in reaction to was his views on LBGT rights and support of stuff like gay marriage, at a Broadway musical where the lead is a gay, HIV+ Latino dude.

Yeah. Him going to a show like that was clearly a hamfisted attempt at reaching out to the LGBT community. He's not going to do that again. Worse, any sympathy he might have had or any desire for leniency or backpedaling on his previously publicly stated beliefs are now gone. When he does his worst, and he will now feel no incentive not to do his worst, the crowd there will have to shoulder some of the blame. All they had to do was behave and let him pat himself on the back for the gesture, and he would have found a little reason at least to not be a total ass. Thanks, SJWs, thanks for the Call Out and making things worse yet again.

He's not going to do that again. Worse, any sympathy he might have had or any desire for leniency or backpedaling on his previously publicly stated beliefs are now gone. When he does his worst, and he will now feel no incentive not to do his worst, the crowd there will have to shoulder some of the blame. All they had to do was behave and let him pat himself on the back for the gesture, and he would have found a little reason at least to not be a total ass.

Do you really believe any of those things would have happened? Do you really believe that, if Mike Pence had had an uneventful night at Hamilton, there would have been any material difference whatsoever in his policies towards LGBT people? You honestly think that's the case?

Yes. People make decisions based on how much of a feelgood factor all the time. Did you know that if you are up before the court for sentencing then if your hearing is immediately after lunch then you'll get a lighter sentence? If your college application gets read the day after the screener's football team wins you have a better chance of being accepted? These things, small things, matter. Especially when we are talking about getting a least worse deal now. We're never going to get a good deal, but we can get a less worse one by giving these guys as much little feelgood as possible. Let them feel like gracious pricks, it'll be a hairsweight's less harsh, and we need every little increment we can get right now.

A college application getting screened, or even a sentencing in court, is a much different endeavor than a major bill getting passed, and a politician who has campaigned his entire career on anti-LGBT values is much less susceptible to those kinds of effects than a college applications worker choosing between two hard-to-distinguish applicants. I don't think there's any use for us to stop talking about justice and start begging for table scraps. I think that's a useless strategy in the short term and a harmful one in the long term.

(Also, I feel compelled to point out that the kinds of studies about the value of priming that you're relying on here are incredibly dubious, but I would still disagree even if it weren't for that)

No what will happen if he gets brownie points for attending a fucking Broadway show is that he will think, "Ah yes, doing the bare minimum nets me good press. I shall continue throwing smokescreens with these pointless gestures while forging ahead with my terrible policies under the radar."

I don't think, prior to the Hamilton episode, he gave any indication of changing his policy or attitudes, or gave anyone a reason to believe that he would even consider it. People usually don't have Damascene revelations like that in real life.

My issue with SJWs was always that they usually spend more time hitting people who don't deserve it and make good causes look bad. People who are actually dangerous and have caused harm to marginalized communities, like Pence, I am far less willing to defend.

Trump and friends aren't going to play nice. I don't see why we should.

Oh god this. Think Progress recently wrote a piece bitching at the Associated Press because they said it would be history-making if Trump actually named the woman he was considering to be RNC chair. Because, in their mind, that meant AP was calling Trump a "champion of women."

Which, they weren't. Not even a little. They were stating a fact about prior leaders of the RNC. And I was just like, "Dude?! THIS is where your rage is going? Maybe refocus a bit."

lol. Pence is a moron who has made his disdain for LGBT people very clear, and theater is without question the one guaranteed safe space for LGBT people and other outcasts. Its patrons tend to be quite liberal too. Pence's presence was not welcome, and while I thought the cast's message to him was even-handed and even conciliatory, it doesn't change the fact that Pence being there was an insult to everyone in the building as well as the message of the show itself.

You don't get to spend your career trying to legislate gay people out of existence only to come to their house without incident. If you really think that Pence would have walked out of that theater thinking "maybe queers aren't so bad, I'll stop trying to kill them" if he'd been left alone, then I seriously question your ability to think rationally.

It isn't about whether he deserves it or not, it is whether it is smart to do it to him. We depend on his good graces, for fuck's sake, give him a reason to have some. Making him know he is unwelcome, as personally thrilling as it is to stick it to him, is not going to help the cause. It is not a smart strategy. 'Cause instead of going back home feeling like the gracious lord, he went home spiteful and resentful and he literally holds power of life and death over LGBT people right now. Do you see why antagonizing him is fucking stupid, no matter how feelgood it is? We are in the yes-masser no-masser phase of things right now, we need to start acting like it.

It's really interesting to me that the election was less than two weeks ago, and already, people are out here saying that we need to obsequiously flatter the vanity of our rulers like they're tinpot dictators

Re: Advice?

(Anonymous) - 2016-11-21 05:54 (UTC) - Expand

Historically, bowing and scraping and giving oppressors and the people who make our lives miserable warm fuzzies has gotten people nowhere.

We lost this battle, but we also need to fight Trump and his allies where and when we can, show them that there are people out there who will not kiss his ass, and stand up for the people he'll hurt. He is a man used to getting his way. Rolling over and hoping for a belly rub rather than the stick while the owner's reaching for his branch won't change anything.

LOL, nah. We don't. Telling everyone they need to shut up and bend over is not a smart tactic, and insisting that it is won't fool anyone.

People like you are why fascism wins.

I feel like you've internalized some unnecessarily apocalyptic messages in the two weeks.
Not all forms of protest are effective but silently hoping they will be nice to you makes you irrelevant to a politician. You are not yet living under an inbred absolute monarch, despite the way people are talking about it.

Re: Advice?

(Anonymous) - 2016-11-19 23:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Advice?

(Anonymous) - 2016-11-20 03:23 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Advice?

(Anonymous) - 2016-11-20 19:52 (UTC) - Expand

I don't think we need to be grateful for anything that doesn't come with actual policy implications. Doing awful things and saying something nice is still doing awful things.

I think there's a separate argument that there's some tactical necessity for the left to shut up and not be strident about things. That's separate from being grateful for gestures. I don't agree with that, either - I think anyone who thinks that being moderate and conciliatory and reasonable and non-argumentative wins elections should take a closer look at who the fucking President-Elect is - but I think you can at least make a case there, and there are things we can do in terms of making more explicitly constructive arguments. But gratitude? I don't agree.

Him and Trump's ego respond best to shows of gratitude, it reassures their narcissism. Showing gratitude for scraps and gestures is tactically necessary right now. We are dependent on his goodwill so we need to find was for him to have some, not piss him off.

you have a really weird world view my friend. bowing to fascists helps on a individual level, it does not affect their general policies.

You don't get to accrue Pence's record of bigotry and then attend a wildly popular diversely cast musical and still call that a "gesture" and expect people to welcome you with open arms. But as it happened, the lead of Hamilton was extremely gracious even if the audience was not.

The cast statement was about as mild as it gets:

“We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights,” he said. “We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.”

It was incredibly uncouth to boo Pence at a Broadway show, as much as I don't like his beliefs.

Far less uncouth than his anti-gay, misogynist policies. *shrug*

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