fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #477 ]

⌈ Secret Post #477 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 393 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (lolol) 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ], [ 1 - person has TOO MUCH FREE TIME ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I believe we already had this conversation before (you were the anon from page 2, right?), so any more conversation on the topic would just be repetitive. But it essentially comes down to this: Some people find certain traits endearing, others don't. I personally find Nia's naivity annoying as hell, but I acknowledge that it's more of a personal preference than anything else. You're entitled to like her as much as you want, but just because a writer intends for the audience to take a flaw a certain way doesn't mean everyone will share the same opinion about it. What some people find adorable other might find irritating.

If you found Nia's naivety annoying... then why do you consider her a character without flaws? Her main flaw is enough to warrant your annoyance, so I would say it makes impossible to consider her a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue would annoy you due to being "flawless", not due to her or his main flaw.

But didn't you just say character flaws are meant to endear the audience? That's why I mentioned my own annoyance: to show that character flaws can easily cause irritation for the viewers.

I did say that Nia's naivity was a flaw, just that it was a rather Sueish one.

Characters flaws exist to endear the audience, but since everyone is different you can't create character everyone comes to love.

And I don't see why determined "flaws" are inherently more Sueish than others.

Character flaws can exist for many different reasons. It's a gross generalization to assume that every single character flaw was created for the sole purpose to endear them to the audience. I find it hard to believe that the flaws of, say, villians and morally ambiguous characters are intended for the same purpose as the flaws of protaganists.

Nia's particular "flaw" is deemed Sueish by others because the cast never holds her responsible for her actions as a result of it.

a) I obviously meant protagonists.
b) She can be held responsible of her actions as result of it. She would be responsible of her own death if Adiane had killed her, for example.

a) It's not necessarily obvious, considering characters who fulfill different roles are portrayed in different ways. A perky, bubbly character is going to be portrayed a lot differently than a stoic, brooding one, for example, and their flaws will reflect that. But we're going off topic here.

b)But Adiane didn't kill her. It's no use arguing about what "would have" happened unless it actually occurred on the show. The point is, Nia's naivity was never a quality that other main cast members held her responsible for.

But other than Simon's insecurity "killing" Kamina at episode 8, no other character flaw became the source of a mistake said character would be held responsible for.

You asked why naivity would be considered a Sueish trait, and I told you. If you want to debate the flaws of other characters with me, than feel free to do so, but I am only referring to NIA'S flaw, considering the was the one the secret was pertaining to.

A Mary Sue is only a Mary Sue in relation to the fiction she is written in. The definition you copied from Wikipedia said so itself. Since Nia fits among the GL cast she is not a Mary Sue.

Did everything I say before just go through one ear and out the other? XD I said before that it was a combination of her other traits that lead me to believe she is a Sue. You think she is not, and I think she is. It's as simple as that. But apparantly you will not rest until I admit she is not a Sue, which isn't happening.

But you have no proof of her being a Sue, it's as simple as that. If you will keep calling her a Sue, I will just keep disproving you as much as it necessary. Every single definition of Sue in existence involves "breaking suspension of disbelief", you're fishing for something that isn't there. It's like being obstinate over yellow being orange, it's just grasping at straws.

But do you honestly believe that a character MUST break the suspension of disbelief to be called a Sue, completely disregarding all his/her other qualities? See, this is where the core of our argument lies. The definition of Mary Sue has become much more flexible than when it first came out. I could say that Nia breaks the suspension of disbelief because no character could honestly be that perfect at everything, but that would just lead to another debate that will never be settled because we both refuse to believe our opinions are wrong.

But Nia is not perfect at everything, she is strong because she relies on Simon just like Simon is strong because she relies on her. The other terms you consider Mary Sue-ish meant nothing even when put together. A character that is pure-hearted, a princess and has a mysterious heritage is not a Mary Sue, she's just a fairy tale heroine.

What is she not perfect at (and don't say cooking, because that's just a running gag found in various animes)? The beach episode even parodies this. And I have a feeling you're just going to say "her naivity!" but we already discussed that, so please try to find something else.

And for the 50th time, you and I clearly have a different view of what makes a Sue. I think she is a Sue because she is essentially flawless, but that just brings the whole argument back in a circle.

I find it funny how the contents of the beach episode are "SERIOUS CANON" yet the cooking is but a running gag. Nia is socially retarded and basically useless. She has no specific skills and can't engage in any practical or useful tasks other than arguing, how can someone like that be "flawless"?

Her cooking habits can be found in about 70% of anime out there. Her amazing looks/atheltic ability/purity combined are not.

I've already discussed the "socially retarded" comment. Oddly enough, her social retardation never brings her in any conflict with any of the main cast. Her uselessness is never truly detrimental, because Simon will always come to save the day in the nick of time. She's always giving him support by the sidelines, and everyone loves despite her uselessness.

Her amazing looks/athletic ability/purity combined are the generic traits of a classic shoujo heroine. Sandy Bell, Heidi, Candy Candy or Nadja showcased them. Hell, not only shoujo heroines... fairy tale princesses showcase similar attributes. They're not the trait of a Mary Sue.

And why would the cast hate them when they hate nobody? No-one in the cast hates Yoko either, is she a Mary Sue? Obviously not. No-one in the cast hates Dayakka, is he a Mary Sue? Obviously not.

Here, picture this: image someone different from Simon would have opened the case. Imagine she had no-one to rely on after being forsaken by Genome. She would have grown depressed, don't you think?

[ SECRET POST #477 ]

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