Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-05-11 05:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-05-11 05:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #492 ]
⌈ Secret Post #492 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and DO contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 17 pages, 417 secrets from Secret Submission Post #071.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Or say a great series like Life on Mars ends. I loved the character dynamic, I go and I look for some fanfic or fanart. And for every one gen-fic that's just about the characters and their relationship, there's, what, ten pwp about Sam and Gene getting busy, most of which completely flatten both characters.
Or hey, did anyone ever do a fic where Dib and Zim become friends? Yeah, but they all end with wacky alien sex. All of them. Or some just start at that point.
Don't get me wrong--I like romances that start out as friendship. But I like seeing just regular, platonic friendships as well. Not every friendship has to be about sex, as seems to be the fandom motto. I mean, take Turk and JD from Scrubs--they have this amazing, comfortable friendship that makes them an old married couple (to the point that Carla says she has nightmares about them running away together, and people often mistake them for an actual couple). If there was a sexual aspect, I don't know...it feels like it would cheapen it. Like it's saying that wonderful friendship they have isn't good enough.
And yeah, the same is true of het, but it just seems like the slash/het ratio is a bit disproportionate, in slashes favour.
The truth is, I don't even mind slash all that much. I've gotten to the point where I wear the slash-goggles, even if I don't usually ship it. Slash is that kind of annoying, but funny kid in class, the one who often provides oodles of amusement, whether he means to or not, that you're somewhat fond of, even if you don't usually talk to him. He makes things interesting, but you just wish he would shut the heck up once in awhile.
no subject
I'm not involved in any of the fandoms you mentioned, but if I compare to the situation in Bleach, where I want slash with the main character and one of the shinigami, the fandom is completely dominated by het when it comes to him (ironically between him and one of his two best female friends). The ship wars between Ichigo/Rukia and Ichigo/Orihime camps are famous. Despite this I have no problem scrolling past posts about this, avoiding fic, or not pay attention to manips. I see that it exists, but just because a very large part of fandom see their friendships as potentional romance doesn't mean I have to agree (or that they are wrong in thinking it for that matter). It also doesn't change what happens in canon.
Don't get me wrong--I like romances that start out as friendship. But I like seeing just regular, platonic friendships as well. Not every friendship has to be about sex, as seems to be the fandom motto.
I think this is simply a logical fallacy. Sure, everything is shipped in fandom but not by the same people. I adore friendship stories. Sometimes I ship two friends of a large cast; the rest remain friends. Other people will inevitably ship other couples.
If there was a sexual aspect, I don't know...it feels like it would cheapen it.
Now this is what people really take issue with (and me too). Romance is not cheapening. It changes the relationship, but it doesn't erase the friendship; it simply adds another aspect (which is not by any means making the friendship better; the friendship is the same, the romance is just added to it). There's nothing wrong with not wanting to add that aspect, but wanting to add it isn't wrong either.
I don't understand this assuption that one somehow cancels the other out.
And yeah, the same is true of het, but it just seems like the slash/het ratio is a bit disproportionate, in slashes favour.
That completely depends on fandom and area. Livejournal tends to accumulate slashers, I think.
no subject
And I didn't say it was shipped by the same people, just that everything is shipped in fandom, and eventually, I get tired of running into it everywhere I turn.
Romance is not cheapening. It changes the relationship, but it doesn't erase the friendship;
Well, firstly, I didn't say romance is cheapening. I think it's because I'm a Doctor Who fan, but I think there's a definite difference between adding romance and adding sex. (That whole school thought that, while the Doctor is not really a sexual being, he's very romantic.)
But either way, I didn't even say that sex (or romance) always cheapens a relationship. What I said was that it feels like it cheapens it because it is saying that the platonic friendship isn't good enough and has to have sex added to it to make it worthwhile to fandom.
I don't think an actual relationship is automatically cheapened by having sex or romance in it, but the truth is, half the time, I find slash lazy. If you really put the effort into it and make it a relationship, fantastic. But a good portion what I've read and seen is more like "I can't be buggered to realistically portray the relationship's dynamic, so here, have some boys kissing and some very unrealistic but sparkly sex."
And then there's all sorts of fun things, like Twincest and whatnot, that seems to be saying that siblings who have a really good, close relationship must obviously be sleeping together. When you get to that level, it's just sad, and a little bit ridiculous. See, the thing is, I don't think two people having sex cheapens their actual relationship; I think people assuming thatt a relationship has to involve sex does. And yeah, that's just an opinion, but it's my opinion.
no subject
Well, people like different things, and making less peolpe ship the particular pairings you don't like is just not possible.
I think there's a definite difference between adding romance and adding sex.
But in fandom (dark fic aside) romance tend to be the focus. In many stories sex is a byproduct of the romance, but the whole point is the characters falling in love.
What I said was that it feels like it cheapens it because it is saying that the platonic friendship isn't good enough and has to have sex added to it to make it worthwhile to fandom.
But this isn't how we who are actually writing and reading romantic (with or without sex) fic feel about it. It's not that the friendship isn't enough; sometimes we just want to explore what would happen if they also were in love.
"I can't be buggered to realistically portray the relationship's dynamic, so here, have some boys kissing and some very unrealistic but sparkly sex."
Well, you just described the majority of all romantic fiction ever, published or amateur.
And then there's all sorts of fun things, like Twincest and whatnot, that seems to be saying that siblings who have a really good, close relationship must obviously be sleeping together. When you get to that level, it's just sad, and a little bit ridiculous.
That you dislike a fictional kink does not make it wrong (in fic, that is) to have.
What it all comes down to in the end is realising that other people have different tastes from you, and that that's all right.
no subject
Yes, yes, that is what it all comes down to. I'm not about to crusade around, trying to make people stop writing slash or whatever. I wasn't making some kind of attack on people who love Frodo/Sam.
I just said that I PERSONALLY do not like it.
See, that's my personal opinion. Gratuitous slash bothers me. It makes other people happy as clams, but my personal freaking opinion is that I do not like it for the reasons I've stated. Nine times out of ten, it just feels shallow. Which is the same as any romance, but the topic was slash. C'est tu.
no subject
I think the problem might be making value judgements out of opinions. Such as labelling slash as gratuituous, for example. If you don't like it you don't like it, but if you express yourself in a way that implies that there's something objectively wrong with it, people will be annoyed.
For us who do like slash, saying "I don't like it, it's not my cuppa" is perfectly fine, and won't insult anyone (except for the crazies, and who cares about them?). Using words like "cheapening" or "shallow", however, will.
Preferring the friendship dynamics as they are is one thing; labelling the mere existance of romantic fic for a couple of friends as less worthy is rather different. Sometimes examining your feelings, and the reasons for them, can be a good thing - emotional reactions can sometimes be based on misconceptions.
no subject
See, I think we're both on the defensive here, because you keep misinterpreting what I'm saying. I did not label slash as gratuitous, or at least, I didn't say it all was. What I said was "Gratuitous slash bothers me." Not all slash bothers me. As previously mentioned, I've gotten to the point where I've got the blasted slash goggles on too. Gratuitous sex bothers me, hetro or otherwise. But so much slash just seems like it's for the sole purpose of making two pretty guys have sex. That is gratuitous and shallow. Hey, everyone likes shallow things every now and again, that's fine.
And I'll admit is largely an emotional reaction on my point, because I get a lot of people thinking my best friend and I are a couple because of how close we are. My other friend could mack every girl he sees, and he still can't convince half the people he meets that he's straight. And if people think the Winchesters are having twincest, then I'd hate to know what they'd think of me and my brother.
Look, I do find a lot of it cheapening and shallow. I just do. Not all of it. but a lot of what I've found. Maybe it's because I'm not a very sexual person, maybe it's because if average fic writing is meh, then average romance fic is much much worse, maybe it's because I'm just tired of it and venting before returning to my little corner. If it makes me pretentious, fine. That's just the way I feel about it. I'm as entitled to my opinions on slash as you are.
no subject
Words do have power, and "gratuituous" is both negative and pretty much wholly subjective.
But so much slash just seems like it's for the sole purpose of making two pretty guys have sex.
No question about it; much slash, lika all romance, have shallow reasons for existing. Singling out slash makes it seem like you only think it's a problem when it's slash, and not het. From your answers here I know that's not what you meant, but when communicating in text only, saying exactly what you mean is important. Otherwise these misunderstandings occur so easily (since there are quite a few people out there who do think it only applies to slash).
Also, I don't think shallow reasons for a ship is necessarily a bad thing when it comes to fic - it's all in the execution.
And if people think the Winchesters are having twincest, then I'd hate to know what they'd think of me and my brother.
I'll tell you this much: people do it because they're fictional characters. Fiction is different from reality in many ways, and is accordingly treated in discussion and critique.
If it makes me pretentious, fine. That's just the way I feel about it. I'm as entitled to my opinions on slash as you are.
No I don't think it makes you pretentious at all - I'm surprised the word even came up.
Of course you're entitled to your opinions, but thinking about the resons for them is a good thing, and that goes for everyone - I do it all the time. Expressing them publicly opens up for discussion, and other people have the right to tell you their feelings on the subject.
A lot of fiction is shallow and cheap, but I've come to the conclusion that it's because of the execution of an idea or premise, not the idea or premise itself.