fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #499 ]

[ SECRET POST #499 ]

⌈ Secret Post #499 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 18 pages, 445 secrets from Secret Submission Post #072.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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07. ...Why, exactly? Austen's novels aren't really all that sappy. And Sense and Sensibility is all about how great loves are really very unlikely in the scheme of things.

16. Oh, um, gosh. I don't watch Supernatural, but I'm kind of curious now. What's so awful about this Bela? Even quite reasonable people seem to hate her, so it can't all be fandom crazy, can it?

20. The Doctor is the biggest fucking Sue in the series, okay? Closely followed by Jack. So is Jenny, but she's the only one who seems to get crap for it. Awesomely over-powered characters are the name of the game in most fantasy/sci-fi, the trick is in the first word: awesome. I love all those characters.

65. Makes perfect sense to me.

*eyes secret maker suspiciously*

That said,

theangelacademy, people. Currently we have some Brice fic and some art, come and do stuff with us!

20. Exactly! I was going to point out that no one ever calls out Jack or the Doctor when fandom goes on its Sue Witch-Hunt, but I didn't want to start wank. But that's exactly right. Especially the part where the sci-fi genre is all about larger than life characters.

Thank you.

The obvious answer to the Doctor-as-Sue thing is that he is massively flawed - vain, arrogant, even cruel sometimes, not to mention the whole triple-genocide thing - but he doesn't get slapped for it nearly enough.

IMO, the defining characteristic of a Sue is that they don't have defining characteristics. They're pretty generic, as heroes go, and since they're always right, they don't have much of a chance to grow and develop (if they did, they wouldn't be a Sue). Whereas Jenny doesn't have much of an identity at the start of the episode (apart from "soldier", which is explicitly problematised) and part of the story is her finding one: the person who won't kill if she doesn't have to, who makes sacrifices for the right cause, who wants to travel and put her newfound knowledge to good use.

20. Oh, completely. Another reason that I didn't say that Jack and the Doctor should be Sues is just because I don't believe the Sue label should be applied to a canon work, period. In my opinion, the definition of a Sue has to be fannish, because the Sue is an original creation that takes the focus of a story, and, in a sense, the dramatic life, from an outside canon's characters for the sake of stroking the writer's ego.

This doesn't work in a canon piece, because all the characters are in the same playing field. If one character starts gaining more focus than another, that's just a part of storytelling. BUT, I think the fact characters such as the Doctor, who, despite his numerous flaws, can be displayed as something of a Tinkerbell Jesus (one of my major issues with Ten, and thank goodness for Donna Noble for starting to fix that), and Jack Harkness, who, among other things, becomes immortal, get a pass is evidence of a sexist double-standard common in fandom.

Jack and the Doctor have many weaknesses and flaws, and are NOT Sues. Even if they didn't have so many flaws, I wouldn't define them as Sues, though they probably wouldn't be very likable or effective characters. But whenever fans start claiming that Martha, Rose, Reinette, or Jenny are canon Mary Sues, I notice that the male characters are rarely included, and that's very telling to me.

I think there CAN be a canon Sue - a character who does no wrong, who everyone loves unless they're evil, who isn't a realistic person - but they're not nearly as rare as some would have you think.

I don't think anyone in Who fits the bill, really, and I agree that the females getting accused far more often than males is saying something quite bad about fandom.

(Mind, I can understand the 'Sue' label for Rose, in a way, but only in the way she's thought of, if that makes any sense. She's put on a pedestal by characters and creators alike, which does ping the Suedar a tad. I can understand it for Ten, too, though.)

The closest thing I can accept to a canon Sue would have to be a character that has many elements of self-insertion. Clear examples of self-insertion, like the infamous Wesley from Star Trek. But, blah, arguing about definitions is never a good way to spend an evening, especially when its such a flexible and uncanonized term such as 'Mary Sue'.

I... actually can see what you're talking about with Rose. I like her when she's on the show, but I don't get excited about her like I get excited about seeing Martha and Donna (who is my hero). Though it makes sense that she would hold a special place in the Doctor's mind as his first companion after the Time War, the fact that the companion who was the most dependent on the Doctor is the one most lamented and praised is troubling to me.

It is for me! ;p ...At least, when people aren't being rabid about it. Silly thing to get worked up over, really.

*nods* I think it hurts her as a character, and sometimes it's difficult to separate...media Rose from canon Rose, perceptions from facts. Because taken as a character she -wasn't- perfect, but sometimes she was -treated- that way. ...And, yeah, that's been disturbing me for a while. I just hope when we see her again that's well behind her.

...I need to make a Donna icon.

Ever since my formative years in the Gundam Wing fandom, I realized that my shows are not more fun if I waste a great deal of time and energy hating characters! XD It's much more fun to enjoy everything as much as you can, instead of ticking one character in the love box and one in the hate, and then having them duke it out in online fan wars like some terrible game of Pokémon.

I hope that when we see Rose again she has a tops life in AU Torchwood with Mickey and her family, whom she chooses to go back to in the end. Or maybe that would be too much of Martha's plotline. Either way, the three companions need to bond.

I need a Donna icon that points out how similarly she looks to Ten. It's creepy.

XD I never understood why people focused so much on characters they didn't like. Way to ruin your fun, guys. :p (Oh, Gundamn. I felt so alone liking Relena.) ...Though oh, god, I want to see that drawn now.

Definitely! I hated that Rose didn't get to choose to leave last time. And oh, those three will make an awesome team if they're allwoed to.

There should be animations of them ranting side by side.

Well, I hated Relena, but that was because I was 13 and fandom told me to! And, while I read GW fic like it was my job, I had probably seen ten episodes of the series in all, so by that time I would bash poor Relena even when I saw her doing really cool shit, like shooting ladies in the middle of a party or something (the memory's hazy).

My current opinion? Relena's crazy, but in a way that's completely entertaining, and gets the job DONE.

XD That'll do it. I didn't really get into the fandom until later.

...I kinda want to rewatch some eps now.

I think there CAN be a canon Sue - a character who does no wrong, who everyone loves unless they're evil, who isn't a realistic person - but they're not nearly as rare as some would have you think.

Ayla from the Earth's Children series. Need I say more? ;)

I usually work on the definition that a Sue is any character too obviously an idealised stand-in for the author, but you're right that it should only really be applied to fannish characters, because otherwise it becomes to easy a label to slap onto any character you don't like. (And wish-fulfillment characters hardly have to be bad: compare Bella Swan with Anne Shirley.)

Yeah - when I see the "Rose is a Sue!"/"Reinette is a Sue!" argument, "the Doctor is a Sue!" is my kneejerk reaction simply because of that double standard, not because it's particularly true.

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[ SECRET POST #499 ]

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