fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3777 ]

[ SECRET POST #3777 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3777 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Early for once!

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 44 secrets from Secret Submission Post #541.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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Obviously inspired by the Slytherin secret.

Who are your fandom's designated bad guys? Do you think they're meant to be, or it's a POV issue, OR it's played for laughs and not meant to be taken seriously?

With Slytherins all being bad, I actually think it's a mixture.

1. JKR has said she never meant for Slytherins to all be, as I put it, meanie stinky poop heads. So I think some of it was her focusing on the "bad" Slytherins, as well as Harry's limited POV. I think ultimately Houses in general are way more complex than is immediately obvious.

2. The series started out very juvenile, and therefore there are a lot of juvenile tropes. I don't mean juvenile in a bad way - but they were for kids. Cheerleaders in kid's books and shows are always snobby and popular and mean, the nice kids are always bookish and smart. Even YA books and movies, which the books eventually graduate into, are often very "she wears high heels/I wear sneakers." The Slytherins are the bully cheerleaders, except eviler. I don't think JKR expected adults who now realize an entire snake-leading squad can't be evil would be fretting over it.

point #2 is a very good one, yeah

I mean I know I didn't really think about that stuff as much as a kid, I was a lot more ready to accept "Slythern = bad" because it served the plot

Then why on earth did she write the entire Slytherin house turning on Harry during the Battle of Hogwarts? That would have been the perfect time for them to join in the school's defense, especially since it was at the end of the series and had outgrown the juvenile shades of the early books.

That frustrated me to no end.

I'm with you on that. The fact that they were portrayed that way in the early books, I can take. But I don't understand her choices regarding the Battle of Hogwarts, especially since by that point she was ostensibly trying to show that Slytherins could be on the good side too...

It read to me like maybe some of them wanted to but they were too afraid to turn against their house. Which, don't get me wrong, is still frustrating, and writes them all to be cowards, too.

Parks and Recreation had the library, but I think that was a combination of it being played for laughs and the fact that Tammy 2 was a nut job and probably ran the library with a nutty fist.

Tolkien: Orcs, Nazgul, Morgoth, Sauron, etc. Balrogs, Black Numenoreans
Mostly played serious and they are completely irredeemable. There might be wiggle room with orcs in LOTR when they are clearly abused and annoyed by their situation.

SW: Sith, Imperials, Criminals, Politicians
Sith are evil and intended to be, but characters like Ventress (and maybe Maul/Savage) allow some grey in the mix. I

mperials can be played for laughs intentionally and unintentionally. There were two bumbling Imperials in Rebels but they ended up getting beheaded so that ended quickly. Tarkin/Thrawn show that some are super badass and evil.

It depends on the criminal. Jabba is irredeemable and Aura is ruthless. Hondo is a joke on Rebels now. Boba is the hidden heart-of-gold type, and is mostly a villain because he was an antagonist to the heroes.

Same for politicians. Some are straight up evil (Lott Dod), some are virtuous (Bail), most are somewhere in between.

pull up a chair, F!S, and let me talk to you about One Piece.

864 chapters in, and there have been only two actually evil irredeemable bad guys, one of whom is mostly in the background and will probably stay a background villain until the very final arc (that being Blackbeard). Donquixote Doflamingo is an absolutely terrible person, but rather than fall into either "evil for the sake of evil" cardboard tropes or "but's he's really just misunderstood!" tropes, he's so ridiculously complex that while he's terrible, you don't know how to feel about his terribleness. He was born a bit psychotic, raised in a culture that treated him as a literal god, then brought down and shown the real pain and suffering of humanity. Rather than learn humility like his brother, he clung to his nature to be evil...and also had it encouraged by his lackeys. Oda crafted the most complex villain I have ever seen and while I personally hate Doflamingo, I tip my hat to stellar storytelling.

I suppose by that right you can also consider Doflamingo's crew to be 100% bad guy irredeemable bastards, but at least two of them had complex reasons for being as they are and one deserted him, so...

That said, it's a series about pirates and for the most part, nearly everyone is shades of gray, both protagonists and antagonists. And then antagonists become protags and you don't know what to think. During their story arcs you hate Crocodile, Enel, Arlong, and Caesar, but then Crocodile assists in saving Luffy's life, Arlong turns out not to be the worst fishman that ever existed with complex reasons involving racism and slavery for turning out nasty, and Caesar becomes useful - and also comic relief. Full-on enemies become the crew's friends. Marines themselves are not treated as unimpeachable good guys, there are corrupt ones and ones who have simply let their worldview taint their morals. Even Big Mom and Kaidou, who may arguably be just as irredeemably bad as Doflamingo, have become what they are through a complex mix of background, personal desires, and the way the world has treated them. The Vinsmoke children have been genetically engineered to be emotionless badasses and yet you can't tell if they're bad guys or just victims. On top of all of that you have the main cast - they're pirates. They kill, steal, cause destruction, and live to break the law and defy the government.

I admire Oda for making it so that outside of just a couple of villains, you constantly have to question what constitutes a villain and what makes someone "bad." He constantly makes you struggle with questions of blood, upbringing, influence, politics, and relationships. I actually like that bad guys change based on the story's POV, there's nothing wrong with deciding that you like Crocodile a bit now or can't tell if Akainu is supposed to be considered a villain. The only "bad guys" played for laughs are tertiary-level characters who are just filling out a roster in an arc's baddy's crew who get humiliated by the main cast, and even then, it happens a lot less than you'd think in a shounen story about pirates.

Liberals, the media, and human rights activists. Yes, my fandom was Law and Order: SVU.

They tried to walk it back a little and show a "good" human rights lawyer, but human rights were only a good thing when cops had them. Then the entire world drank the koolaid and I could no longer keep watching the show.

Are we watching the same show? Because the designated bad guys have been conservatives for a long while by now.

Definitely not watching the same show. I can't even figure out which episode you're referring to with this. That show has always had a liberal slant. Always.

Yeah, especially when compared to the original L&O.

Voltron has the galra, and actually I like where it's going because of the reveals in the second half of S2 that they're not, in fact, all bad, but some of the characters have prejudices (of understandable origin, really) making it hard to accept that. It's a big part of the plot right now. I don't know offhand if the original Voltron series ever went there with them though.

Also reminds me of the geth from Mass Effect. I really like races like that in sci-fi. :)

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[ SECRET POST #3777 ]

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