fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3796 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3796 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[The Shining]

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03.

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04. https://i.imgbox.com/wgIVTiyN.gif
[moving gif, Doctor Who]

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05.

[Forever]

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06.

[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]

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07.

[Mortal Kombat 2]

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08. [SPOILERS for Steven Universe]

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09. [SPOILERS for Criminal Minds]
http://i.imgur.com/itjb0jk.jpg
[linked at OP's request / Criminal Minds - Kat Adams played by Aubrey Plaza(top), Lindsey Vaughn played by Gia Mantegna (bottom)]

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10. [WARNING for rape]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #543.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

03. https://i.imgur.com/eX7nHLi.png

The Sunny fandom on tumblr is terrifying, so this is the only place I feel like I can discuss this rationally. (At least, that's my hope.) So for 12 years, Sunny went back and forth about Mac being gay, and tumblr has combed through every episode for evidence for his gayness. But there is one character in particular that people utterly refuse to use as evidence: Carmen. Carmen was very explicitly introduced as a transwoman that Mac was really attracted to, but apparently it's "transphobic" to say that that is proof Mac is gay.

How could that possibly be transphobic? He was a gay man struggling with his sexuality. I think he saw Carmen as a safe way to explore his sexuality because, in his mind and using the show's terminology, she's a "chick with a dick." They bring up the fact that she has a penis several times. I think Mac dating Carmen was his first foray into being comfortable around penises. For so long he was conditioned into living a heterosexual lifestyle, and Carmen was a way for him to transition out of his fear of penises and his own homosexuality.

TL;DR: Transwoman Carmen helped Mac realize he was gay, but tumblr would kill me for saying so.

Ehhh... I think wording matters a lot here.

Saying he liked a transwoman so it's, to quote you, "proof Mac is gay"? I can see why someone would call you transphobic for wording it like that, because it makes no sense unless you believe transwomen are men, because gay men like men. A gay man who dates a man without a penis is not "proof he's straight" and he secretly loves women.

On the other hand, if you said "she is clearly evidence that Mac isn't only into 100% cis het females so his sexuality is broader than narrowly cis het straight, and his partner having a penis is not a dealbreaker, and this was his first foray into including penises in his sexuality," that's not transphobic and makes total sense.

I don't think it's what you're saying, it's how you're saying it.

On the other hand, if you said "she is clearly evidence that Mac isn't only into 100% cis het females so his sexuality is broader than narrowly cis het straight, and his partner having a penis is not a dealbreaker, and this was his first foray into including penises in his sexuality," that's not transphobic and makes total sense.

OMG YES. Thank you. That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say. I just had no idea how to correctly explain it. Thank you.

Glad to help. :)

I don't think anyone thinks you're transphobic, because the actual ideas you're presenting aren't transphobic, at least imo. They just sound that way if you jump straight from "likes Carmen" to "gay" because people don't see all the steps you put in along the way.

The ideas themselves make sense though.

The argument you make in the second paragraph is very different from just saying that Mac is attracted to a transwoman, therefore he's gay. On a basic level, the reason it's transphobic to say that Mac is attracted to a transwoman, therefore he's gay is because transwomen are women. And talking about the whole chicks-with-dicks narrative gets into a much, much, much trickier and complex argument about how we conceptualize desire and heterosexuality and a whole bunch of things. It's a very tricky area.

I don't think it's transphobic at all to say that's what was going on in Mac's head. But it is important to make the "in Mac's head" bit explicit.

Part of the issue with discourse involving homosexuality and trans issues is that people tend to have different definitions for what "gay" is.

For some people when they talk about their sexuality they are talking about sex specifically, in that case dating a transwoman can still mean that Mac is gay, because no matter what a transwoman is still the male sex. Sex can't actually be changed, only gender can.

But for anyone who defines sexuality in terms of gender, Mac would be either straight or bisexual.

I really feel like we need new terms to define these things because I see arguments pop up in relation to this a lot and it all seems to boil down to "I don't define this word the same way you do."

I agree. I'm certain that's what the show runners had in mind.

"On the other hand, if you said "she is clearly evidence that Mac isn't only into 100% cis het females so his sexuality is broader than narrowly cis het straight, and his partner having a penis is not a dealbreaker, and this was his first foray into including penises in his sexuality," that's not transphobic and makes total sense."

An anon above worded my secret x1000000000000 better than I did!

Personally, I prefer how you worded it actually. Your secret felt like it was laying out your actual argument (which seems valid btw), while ayrt's phrasing feels more like talking around the argument. I mean, they're not wrong, but I feel like your secret already conveys what they're saying while also going a bit deeper.

There's plenty of men IRL who identify as straight who have sex with and/or date transwomen and never go on to say that they're attracted to people who identify as male and have penises.

And I don't think I've ever heard about their being any correlation between men who are attracted to trans women who go on to realize they're gay/bi. Ive heard on multiple instances that transwomen usually don't have many gay men interested after they start transitioning.

I love when people read too much into this show, considering the characters.

Who's reading too much into stuff in this instance? Like... this is talking about stuff that they've made a ton of jokes about on the show?

I dunno, I kinda think the show really is more thought oh than you would have guessed. The whole "Charlie is a CSA survivor" thing has been foreshadowed and played with long before uncle Jack was introduced. Hell, all the way back to the first appearance of the McPoyles, when Charlie was horrified that someone would lie about it. My first though was "Charlie actually was molested by a teacher, wasn't he?"

Then the night man thing popes up. Then finally they introduce uncle Jack.

I really don't think its silly to read into it, because they really do seeming to be working with a long game in mind.

Same with Archer and Arrested Development

Yeah, the Sunny fandom is a fucking mess. I'm so grossed out by the woobification of Dennis, and I don't know if it's because their meta makes him more boring (read. a decent person), or if it's because they overlook his rapist tendencies.

Sadly, this seems to be the case in pretty much all fandoms. :/

She's really cute! Who's the actress?

I agree with you. And I've seen other sunny fans who feel the same way.

If dating a pre-op transwoman was the only thing mac did on the show i wouldn't really see it as an indication he was gay. But it's that with the combination of all of his other comments about guys. And the nip rubbing, and the butt groping, and the crush on Rex, and the emotional dependence on dennis.

[ SECRET POST #3796 ]

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