fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3909 ]

My eyes! Transcript, please? Someone?

tl;dr but basically it's about how OP doesn't like that coming-of-age stories about female characters are all about romance

As pretty as it is, it was kind of annoying to read, wasn't it?

Here's a transcript:

I hate how girls' coming-of-age stories so incredibly frequently revolve around romance in some form. Romance almost never features especially strongly in a coming-of-age story about a boy. It might be present, but it won't be the primary focus, and I have never seen a story where first kiss/first love/loss of virginity was THE defining coming-of-age experience for a male character. I think it's great that boys are depicted as becoming men by growing into their individual personalities and facing challenges, changes or adversity, but I DESPISE the fact that girls nearly always seem to be depicted as becoming women when a boy or a man decides to make out with them and ~awaken their sleeping womanhood~ or whatever.

AYRT Thank you!

"I have never seen a story where first kiss/first love/loss of virginity was THE defining coming-of-age experience for a male character."

The White Mercedes by Philip Pullman.

(You said a story, not a good story.)

"Horns" by Joe Hill. Not YA and dark as fuck, but funny.

"Araby" or "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" by Joyce
"The Road Back" by Remarque

What the author is missing, beyond historical depth, is that many of the bildungsroman of the 19th and 20th centuries are romantic as hell...just queer.

Summer of 42

I was going to say this one.

It's a good exemplar of a whole genre that I think was once very common, but probably isn't part of the modern YA market.

Moonlight, although there were other things going on in Moonlight.

Doesn't Epic of Gilgamesh have this thing about Enkidu not even having been fully human until he loses virginity?

Yeeeaaaaahhhhh.

Agreed 100%

It's overused and, IMO, reflects more what society tells girls they're supposed to want, rather than a universal girl experience.

This is why some girls react in an "ew" fashion to things aimed at them. Not yet able to distinguish between the actual feminine and femininity defined by patriarchy and "reasons" they hate pink, or stories about girls.

In a fair society we'd have more for girls and young women to choose from. FYI I think fiction at least is heading there. There seem to be lots more positive books for girls that don't revolve around "coming of age=boy likes me" than when I was younger.

There were still some, but I think there are more now. Of course, there are other trade-offs; young women are advertised to regarding makeup and "sexiness" much, much earlier and we have some pretty clear evidence that it's not helping them.

Same here, anon. Same here. Also adding when their primary goal for doing something is to attract the attention of "~The Boy~" rather than doing it because they want to.

Just to clear up: I like romance, I just hate when the girl's motivation revolves exclusively around it and she ends up not having any other character trait, outside her love for the male character.

Edited 2017-09-16 22:00 (UTC)

Agreed 100%

It's overused and, IMO, reflects more what society tells girls they're supposed to want, rather than a universal girl experience.

This is why some girls react in an "ew" fashion to things aimed at them. Not yet able to distinguish between the actual feminine and femininity defined by patriarchy and "reasons" they hate pink, or stories about girls.

In a fair society we'd have more for girls and young women to choose from. FYI I think fiction at least is heading there. There seem to be lots more positive books for girls that don't revolve around "coming of age=boy likes me" than when I was younger.

There were still some, but I think there are more now. Of course, there are other trade-offs; young women are advertised to regarding makeup and "sexiness" much, much earlier and we have some pretty clear evidence that it's not helping them.

A patriarchal society has always made a primary goal of "proving" men are better than women, and holding boys up as better than girls, beating down females in a variety of ways till they fit and ONLY fit the roles society proscribes them as often as possible. There have ALWAYS been women who don't comply, but the main narrative finds as many ways as possible to shut them up or "forget" about them.

The stories women are told, the status quo that tells us "what women care about / aspire to", and (in a capitalistic society), what they can be sold, are rarely positive for the women themselves, but rather to protect and continue the status quo, aka male domination.

As an aside, it's been proven that the worst you feel about yourself, the less likely you are to be sales resistance; so the patriarchal-capitalistic mix is literally designed to make women feel shitty about themselves so they'll spend money, on makeup, clothes, diets, basically anything that will earn money and NOT actually improve their lot, satisfaction in who they are, or make them happier in any real sense. That's why the things women are largely sold are things that will be needed again and again, and the boost that comes from buying them (if you get a boost from buying them) will not be lasting.

Diets don't work. I mean, statistically, having been studied, there's no proof they work. And we all know rebound weight can actually be worse after dieting because of metabolism issues. Yet it's a billion-buck industry, and getting bigger all the time.

Basically, far too many stories for young women play into the same false narrative. Women's value is defined by men. Their worth to men. Their looks and sexiness, etc. And in the past, by their ability to have children. That's one's less true today.

On the other hand, stories and things FOR women BY women are denigrated to the extreme by a patriarchal society, attacked with fury, mocked, and debased in male's POVs, (the dominating narrative basically everywhere). To the point where many women can't freely admit to liking things that are for them, and created by other women.

A lot of fiction is having a resurgence of being more positively women-focused. Of course it's not always true, but there are definitely changes in the right direction, or at least MORE content. And what do we have? We have men reviling anything that girl cooties touch in fiction, including reading less than ever, and looking down on any genre they are mainly writing, and getting angry about any genre they're "invading" (even though this is never true, women have always written these genres, whether getting credit for it or not).

Romance has been denigrated for ages. It's ALWAYS been denigrated--because it's been primarily BY women, FOR women. And, while making love stories the focal point, there have been many, many authors that dealt with all sorts of themes and things that women were thinking about and trying to balance or understand in the real world. While Love might conquer all, there were often many different themes that had a lot of interest to women. And even where they were shitty narratives with mostly smut, they're ALWAYS received more criticism than the erotic content aimed at men. To be clear: romance novels, the written word, where no humans are harmed or abused no matter how dreadful the content, are criticized as PORN, while ACTUAL PORN (which doesn't have the best record on human safety, respect, or health), is criticized LESS, because it's AIMED TOWARDS MEN. Actual humans < the written word. And oh yes, reading romance novels will "destroy your marriage" or "make you have unrealistic standards." Ugh. OK...

Then there's an even less capitalistic version of romance novels, the subversion of mainstream, largely male-oriented and male-dominated entertainment, into fanfiction where women take "what ifs" and inject their own world views, thought processes, and, yes, erotic entertainment (once again, WITH NO ACTUAL HUMANS EVER HARMED), and shared it in a free exchange of equals.

Can you honestly think of anything that's more literarily denigrated that fanfiction, especially that written by and for women?? I cannot.

This is getting a bit long, but YES, I believe that things are changing / improving in fiction regarding women. I also think there's already a backlash from men (including against things like Wonder Woman from James Cameron, etc.), because men regard it as an attack against their place in the hierarchy.

And you know what? They are absolutely correct.

Down with that patriarchy. Up with equality. The world cannot continue to sustain half the species being debased and viewed as subhuman or less valuable by the slightly more powerful half. We must and shall do all we can to change this, for the women of the future, and for ourselves. Words are a powerful tool in the struggle.

teal deer?

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2017-09-16 22:14 (UTC) - Expand

Well said, anon. More power to your elbow.

Right on, sister. We live in a society where the (heterosexual, white, cis) male pov is the 'norm' and anything else is not. Hence, anything specifically related to women tends to be put down.

I'm particularly sick of fanfic being denigrated, whereas porn is just accepted. I am disappointed in shows like the Graham Norton show, where he makes fun of fan fic and fan art. Recently, James Mcavoy asked a woman if women finding men on men sexy is a 'real' thing. I saw this as just another example of how women's sexuality is denigrated (ie that women may be into gay stuff- which is pretty obvious considering how prevalent slash fiction is) and men's sexuality is just accepted (lesbian porn).

This bugs me, too, and I was just thinking about this earlier today - yesterday's Labyrinth secret must have reminded me, combined with watching the end of E.T. while at the gym (and I love both movies dearly, so don't think I'm trying to shit on either of them, here).

It's not just romance, but also discovering sexuality in a way that's... how to put this, not so much about the girl but about "now she is sexually mature and available?" I'm being unfair, because there are a lot of examples that are not like this, but it happens. Also: periods. Real periods, "This is all a metaphor for your period," etc.

Not that periods and sexuality and romance aren't things adolescent girls need to deal with IRL, but maybe I want to see a movie about a bunch of girls riding around on bikes and having adventures, you know?

Ah yes, the old ~~young girl's sexual awakening~~ bullshit trope. Barf.

I spent most of my teen years thinking about sex and romance. SHRUG.

Oh.

It's not bad, it's just not everyone fits that.

So did I, but it wasn't this ~huge awakening~ or anything.