Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2017-12-09 03:59 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2017-12-09 03:59 pm
[ SECRET POST #3993 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3993 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 57 secrets from Secret Submission Post #572.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2017-12-10 12:00 am (UTC)(link)Because the argument for it is basically "I don't like the way gay people (supposedly) use it* so I'm going to use it the exact same way to Teach Them A Lesson and it's basically the same as reclaiming a slur" and it's homophobic as fuck to pretend that gay people are the ones primarily responsible for biphobia and to take away (yes, I mean this) the only non-slur terminology that gay men have to describe themselves, turn it into an umbrella term, and leave gay men with only shit like "faggot" and "homosexual". It's also biphobic as hell to slap everyone under "gay" as if bisexuality isn't a real and legitimate identity, and the clearest proof of this is how fucking mad the "gay is an umbrella term!" advocates get when you call them gay in a way that could imply they're actually gay. It's also used in a massively homophobic way in that a lot of the time you see people who are not actually gay using it as a joke, in circumstances such as "look at my glittery shoes, I'm so gay today", i.e. associating tired and offensive and specifically homophobic stereotypes with the word "gay" and then claiming it's an umbrella term.
It may be a straightforward change in usage of the kind that languages constantly go through, but so is the use of "retarded" as a casual insult. Doesn't mean it's still not fucking offensive just because it's language change.
*a way that is not actually common
no subject
(Anonymous) 2017-12-10 12:27 am (UTC)(link)I don't think it's necessarily *better* to use the word this way but I also don't think that I'm really qualified or needed to sit around and make an argument about what changes in usage are and aren't legitimate. And I don't think "retarded" is a good analogy, because I don't think any of these usages really constitute slurs.
Finally, one specific point:
It's also used in a massively homophobic way in that a lot of the time you see people who are not actually gay using it as a joke, in circumstances such as "look at my glittery shoes, I'm so gay today", i.e. associating tired and offensive and specifically homophobic stereotypes with the word "gay" and then claiming it's an umbrella term.
This is - IMO - an entirely and unambiguously different usage of the word than the one that we're talking about. The difference between these usages is one that's generally clear both conceptually and in usage. Conflating these things is 100% incorrect, and I don't even know how you reach that point.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2017-12-10 12:40 am (UTC)(link)I wasn't going to bring my own identity into this because for some reason *cough*HOMOPHOBIA*cough* people start discounting what I have to say as soon as I do, but I guess that's not going to work.
As a gay man, let me tell you that when I can no longer say "I'm gay" and have people understand that I'm fucking gay, when I say "I'm gay" and get people asking "so do you mean you're like bisexual or homosexual or homoromantic or something?", the word "gay" has been taken away from me. It's not at the point where it happens every time, but within explicitly queer spaces it happens at least a solid 10% of the times I identify myself as gay. If I want people to understand that I am gay, saying "I'm gay" is not enough any more. I am forced to describe myself with words like "homosexual", which is obnoxiously clinical when used as an adjective and even then never free from the baggage of its status as an outright slur when used as a noun. I can no longer effectively communicate my identity without being forced to identify myself using words that are fucking homophobic slurs.
The previous meaning has not yet been entirely erased, but the two of them can't exist alongside one another.
And I don't think "retarded" is a good analogy, because I don't think any of these usages really constitute slurs.
I never meant to imply that the two were entirely equivalent, just provide a counterpoint to the idea that language change should be considered sacrosanct and that we shouldn't point it out when bigotry is the reason for it.
This is - IMO - an entirely and unambiguously different usage of the word than the one that we're talking about. The difference between these usages is one that's generally clear both conceptually and in usage. Conflating these things is 100% incorrect, and I don't even know how you reach that point.
By seeing multiple bi people make that kind of joke while both championing their right to call themselves gay and also getting furiously angry about the "biphobia" of anyone who took them at their word and believed they were actually gay. The overlap between "happy to call themselves gay but also really hates gay people" and "makes homophobic jokes" is predictably large.
I want to be clear, the vast majority of bi people I know are not assholes and not homophobic (or at least any more homophobic than any person raised in my society, gay people included). But this is a specific form of homophobia nonetheless and it is mostly perpetuated by bisexual people.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2017-12-10 01:11 am (UTC)(link)I definitely don't think that language change is sacrosanct by any means. But I do think that changes in usage are extremely hard to change, and it's very difficult to try to unilaterally redefine words, no matter how sensible the definitions that you propose are.
And I don't think that the change in usage we're talking about here is any different (and I also don't agree that the specific change we're talking about is founded in bigotry).
As a gay man, let me tell you that when I can no longer say "I'm gay" and have people understand that I'm fucking gay, when I say "I'm gay" and get people asking "so do you mean you're like bisexual or homosexual or homoromantic or something?", the word "gay" has been taken away from me. It's not at the point where it happens every time, but within explicitly queer spaces it happens at least a solid 10% of the times I identify myself as gay... The previous meaning has not yet been entirely erased, but the two of them can't exist alongside one another.
I agree that there is ambiguity there. But ambiguity is pretty widespread in language. For whatever reason, this is a way of talking that makes sense to people and which they find useful, for whatever reason, even with the ambiguity. And it also seems to be the case that, despite the ambiguity, 90% of the time it actually is clear what's being said in context. So communication is still possible.
It's not what I would do if I was the dictator of all language who could decide what all words meant. But I don't think it's bad enough to get mad about, and I definitely don't think it's bad enough to get mad at people who use it, who mostly seem like they're using it in good faith.