[ SECRET POST #4031 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4031 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 18 secrets from Secret Submission Post #577.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[soldatsasha]

I suspect so, yeah.

Nat is always super "scary" and intense and knows everything. Also can't forget Pepper, who always has to show up in any MCU fic over 10k words so she can be "scary" because she's so beautiful and competent and nice. (Men are never scary, especially not people like Deadpool or the Winter Soldier. Unless it's a serious dramatic fic, in which case Coulson and Fury can be actually scary.)

Let's not forget overly-supportive canon token love interests (MJ, Jane, Sharon, etc.) who, ever since their amicable breakup with the MC, have always known that MC was gay/bi and they're just so gosh-darned supportive and happy that the guy they loved is now going to fuck another hot dude. But it's okay because canon love interest is focusing on their career right now and is so emotionally mature that they no longer feel any feelings at all.

[(Anonymous)]

ever since their amicable breakup with the MC, have always known that MC was gay/bi and they're just so gosh-darned supportive and happy that the guy they loved is now going to fuck another hot dude. But it's okay because canon love interest is focusing on their career right now and is so emotionally mature

I'm not in the MCU at all, so maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem bad to me? I mean, if the canonical love interest is overly support to such an extreme degree that it's actually creepy and intrusive, then that's not great. But having the canonical love interest deal with a breakup with maturity and equanimity, showing them to be supportive of their ex's bisexuality, and showing them finding fulfillment in something other than a guy...those things seem pretty good to me.

[soldatsasha]

Oh that's definitely not something restricted to the MCU. I think I've seen it in just about every fandom.

If this was something that popped up occasionally in the random bad fic it would be fine. But it's much like Natasha and Pepper (or really any competent woman in a slash fanfic, like Hermione) being "scary" and hyper-competent and all-knowing. It's a super common fanfic story trope that masquerades as being a good positive thing, while actually totally erasing the agency of the women in the story for the glorification of the slash pairing.

When fan authors use women characters like that to prop up a slash ship, they aren't doing it because it's canon that the woman is some paragon of emotional health and maturity who would be totes understanding and supportive. They're just using them as a plot device. They're there to prop up the cocks.

They take a character and strip her of all her traits, and overwrite them so she can be a Generic Slash Fanfic Ex. She's so super smart. Our Hero appreciates how beautiful she was, but she never stirred him the way Male Love Interest does. She sees things that our Hero is totally oblivious to, because she's so wise and amazing. Everyone knows girls are smarter and more mature than boys, right? If she was canonically fiery and driven about her man, now she's fiery and driven about her career/charity work/hooking up the MC with his new LI. If she was sensitive, now she's just sensitive about his feelings. If she was hurt by him in the past, oh well, she's so mature and amazing that she's gotten over it and is ready to hook him up with someone new!

She's totally twisted to prop up the main pairing. She's not a person, she's just a convenient tool for the author to shout two messages at the audience: 1) I'm not a misogynist, I promise! and 2) These guys are perfect for each other, even the ex-gf thinks so!

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT -- I agree with everything you're saying, but I'll still take it over the OOC evil harpy ex, which seems to be the other default in this situation. I will take omnipotent, rooting for Stony Pepper over evil, emotionally manipulative/abusive, was never good for Tony anyway Pepper any day of the week.

And, as you say, that's not MCU specific. Pick a fandom, and those are usually your options where a canon GF is involved.

[(Anonymous)]

I would prefer good, in-character writing personally.

[(Anonymous)]

Well. If you're ditching a canon SO to hook up your OTP, you're either going to have to kill them off or write them out of character to some degree unless the canon couple is canonically on the rocks, not that into each other, or made up of one or more cheaters. Since this isn't Pet Semetary, I'm willing to settle for OOC. After that, it's just a question of how OOC it's going to be.

[soldatsasha]

I don't think you have to make either of them OOC to break most couples up? There's about a million ways to break up a canon couple without fucking with their personalities.

One of them was always too focused on their career/crime fighting/hobbies/whatever. One of them had to move away to take care of a sick family member. Their job transferred them. For couples who canonically were snarky with each other, it reached a point where they could no longer be civil and fucked up the relationship. For couples who are too saccharine or clingy, it became unhealthy. Once the honeymoon phase was over the spark fizzled out. The honeymoon phase ended and all the things they liked became annoyances. The queer character realized they were queer and broke up to explore other options. They realized they were better as friends. They realized their life goals weren't compatible. They realized their morals or politics or lifestyles weren't compatible. Or how about, they simply fell out of love.

[soldatsasha]

Yeah, no, I get that. Personally I'd rather have some sort of balance. Most people aren't flawless queens. Most breakups are messy and hurtful. I don't mind the OOC evil harpy ex in moderation when it fits, and I don't mind the paragon of emotional health ex when it fits. I've read really great examples of both. (Sometimes an evil ex mean-girling around and calling the MC out on their bullshit can fun!) But neither one fits every character or every situation.

Mostly I just want to see background characters treated like actual goddamn characters, rather than accessories. And while background dudes in slash stories mostly get to be cool bros, or get to just be themselves, background chicks get stuck being, like, soooo totally perceptive.

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm. I think this is something I have a hard time aligning with my own fandom experience because my main fandom for the last...six(?) years has been Sherlock, and frankly, the canon is pretty damn awful about its female characters.

So when people bother to actually make the female characters in their fics exist outside of their connection to John and Sherlock, that's already a significant step up from most of canon. Like, if they bother to write Molly Hooper as someone who actually finds her job fulfilling and has a life apart from pining for Sherlock, that's already a plus, because it's more than canon did. If they also make her super perceptive about John and Sherlock's obsessive pining for each other...I really don't find that diminishing to her canonical character. If anything I'd call it another plus, since perceptivity is at least a positive trait.

So IDK. I can see what you're saying if I imagine, say, Natasha as the female character who keeps getting written that way, because she's more than that in canon. Or if Scully was written as Mulder's cool gal pal who was trying to help him figure out his feeling for Krycek...lol, no thanks. But the slash fandoms I have experience in have been very much shows with two male leads and then the supporting cast. And in those sorts of fandoms, I just find it nice when fic writers bother to include the female characters in the story at all, and not write them as incompetent, shallow twits. Or "bitches."

Also, if a person is in fandom for their OTP, and they don't want to split their focus, I think that's OK. What bothers me is when the fic writer sticks a bunch of belittling, demeaning female stereotypes on the female character(s), out of laziness, misogyny, or a desire to make their OTP look good by comparison.

For the record, I don't write fic myself. I'm not arguing with you because I feel personally attacked. I actually think it's really nice to have a conversation about female representation with a man and have him be the one with higher expectations for female characters. It's a pleasure I have seldom had. I think if we were talking about original fiction, I would feel very differently about this whole topic. I just...IDK, fic is fic. People write what they're into, and if what they're into is their OTP, then they write that. If they take a little time to give the female characters a positive trait or two, hey, cool.

[(Anonymous)]

if a person is in fandom for their OTP, and they don't want to split their focus, I think that's OK.

Yeah, this is what it boils down to for me. I have no idea why someone reading a 1000 word fic would expect any other character to play any more than a supporting role. Obviously supporting characters are going to prop up the the main characters, whether by acting understanding and supportive of the romance or by standing in the way of it so that the couple can show the strength of their bond by overcoming adversity.

Not that I'm not pleasantly surprised when a writer manages to treat every background character with thoughtfulness, but it's fanfic. As long as they're not bashing the background characters I really don't see the problem in authors choosing to put their energy into developing the actual main characters.

[(Anonymous)]

It's massively overdone and it tends to be written in very much the same way regardless of the specific character in question