fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4037 ]

[ SECRET POST #4037 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4037 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Watership Down]

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03.

[Laura Ingalls Wilder, Little Town on the Prairie]

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04.

[Gordon Ramsay]

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05.

[Line of Duty]

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06.

[Spider-Man (Marvel-616)]

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07.

[The Grimsby Brothers (2016)]

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08.

[Dirk Gently / Dollhouse]

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09.

[Electronic Arts]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #578.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Twofold question:

1)How do you avoid turning an OC into a Mary Sue/Gary Stu? Especially in a context where the characters will be in an MC/OC situation? I know the litmus test, but for you as a reader, what makes you roll your eyes and back button?

2) Have you ever self published anything on Amazon? Or a similar platform? Was it difficult? What was your experience like? Or did you attempt to have an publishing company buy your work? Did that happen later for you/never? Please share your experiences! I'm thinking of self publishing (for fun and some small income [I understand it will definitely not be my main source of income]) and I wanted to hear what others had experienced!

1) Fanfiction- I roll my eyes when this new person suddenly has the same or better abilities/privileges/standing/etc than already established characters, with little to no explanation, or a half-assed one. I backbutton when they start turning everyone's lives upside down for no other reason than to establish their place in the universe. Basically, don't throw this person like a bomb in the middle of a crowd and expect the audience to instantly accept them. It's okay to let them play with others, but give them a true purpose, a reason to exist in this universe. The character should take more time and work to build since they are not part of the original universe, but ultimately, they are not more important than anyone else. If they start taking over everything, it's time to dial it back a bit. Of course, I don't suggest to make them boring either.

2) Nope.

Thanks! Will definitely keep these things in mind, especially in regards to how the characters introduced & has her relationship play out with the MCs!

I can't help with the second point, but I am in the same boat! I'm almost finished with my book - well, almost in the sense that the first draft is almost finished, but I'm sure editing will take forever. I know there was an anon here who said she published m/m original stories as her main job. She recommended Pronoun for people who wanted to publish, but I heard that got shut down. It seems Amazon isn't great to publish with because they pay a lot less than they used to, but there aren't a lot of great alternatives for getting traffic.

Let me link to you a message board that this other anon had recommended me when I asked this question: https://www.kboards.com/index.php/board,60.0.html It's a board for writers, and a lot of the discussion there is about self-publishing, getting covers, editing, etc. I've lurked a bit myself, it seems really helpful. There are also a few Reddit communities that I casually follow that has some of this discussion, but so far I prefer the previous board.

Anyway, good luck to both of us. :) I think if you're going in not expecting anything it terms of income, there's nothing to lose, right? As much as I would love my upcoming sci-fi m/m erotica to win awards and instantly make me millions, I think I mostly just want to feel the sense of accomplishment of having something published (even if self-published), and if even a couple people read it, that will be crazy awesome.

Have you finished your book? Have you thought about cover art?

Thank you so much!I've already favorited the website you linked :)

Yeah, I want to do it for fun and hopefully a few people read it and like it . If I can eventually make something with a wider audience, I'd be super excited! Whether it's lucrative or not is not the aim.

Yes, Good luck to the both of us!

I haven't completed it yet (haven't even started writing yet, shame on me :[ ) but I do have an idea for the cover, and I was thinking if doing it myself, as I enjoy illustrating as well...What about you?

I think it's a complicated question. People throw around the term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" a lot and I think it gets overused. Personally, this is the kind of thing that makes me roll my eyes:

* Too much flowery description of the character's oh so unique physical appearance. Even if it's not "she had violent eyes and pale silvery-blue hair" variety, describing a character shouldn't sound as though they author has some sort of kindergarten crush on him/her, you know?

* Too many superlative traits. The hero/heroine who is beautiful and has a secret special bloodline/is the chosen one who masters swordplay and tapdancing in one week and everyone falls in love with them is too hard on the credibility. Make your character human, and you'll avoid the worst excesses of the MS/GS issue.

* Few weaknesses or flaws. Think about your own weaknesses and flaws. Some are trivial, but I bet that if you're like most people, you've got one or two serious ones that often cause you problems, right? Your characters should have this, too.

* Characters who never have to deal with the negative repercussions of their actions. Everything they do is exactly perfect, super smart and the right choice and there are never any longterm repercussions to their actions... nah. That just does not happen IRL and it's actually quite boring to read about. Let your characters occasionally fuck up royally and make sure they have to deal with the consequences, which are usually messy and complicated and can't be resolved with just an "I'm sorry" and a bouquet of flowers... if they can be resolved at all.

I will definitely keep the last two near and dear as write; the OC will have many grave consequences to answer to...

I can't speak for the second, but for the first...I'm working on a story that's also eventually going to be OC/CC (canon character), and one of the ways I'm trying to keep the OC from developing Sue traits is by not having the relationship happen immediately. Develop your OC for a while before even hinting at romantic feelings between the two. The whole "CC falls in love with OC immediately" is a pretty big Sue tell.

Then, once the relationship actually happens, try not to let their romance be the be-all and end-all of the story, and try to keep the canon character in-character. Are they generally kind of grumpy? Then keep them grumpy, but maybe have them soften a little bit when they're in private with their loved one. Are they a risk taker? Have them still take risks, but either they're a little more cautious for the sake of not hurting the OC physically or emotionally, or have that be a plot point where that behavior leads to an argument.

Now granted, I have no guarantee that I'm going to succeed at following my own rules, but that's the best advice I can give.

Thank you anon! Best of luck sith tbe OC/CC. Easing into relationships isn't easy...

Personally I think the best way to do this is to plan your fic out well as well as your character. Write out a bio for them, make a list of their history personality, appearance. A file on them.

There are litmus tests for OCs but they're no substitute for an honest review by a trusted friend and or beta. They can however, make you think about how much you're putting on this character, trait wise, and ask yourself if things are really necessary.

Honestly my issues usually come when the story exists for the OC. An OC can be a part of the story. Even have a major part , but there should be going on too? Other people have lives and personal things going on. It can help to think of a few side things going on. Even if you're writing a story about the OC's relationship with the MC, background events add flavor and realism to the story. Whats going on with the MC, or the MC's best friend, or any specific antagonist. Try thinking about each character's perspective in the story and how they see things. This will help you avoid writing cardboard characters that fall flat or exist to serve the OC.

Also its important to keep in mind good relationship tips in general . Here's a few articles to avoid common pitfalls that can lead to Mary Sues , or just bad relationships.

http://springhole.net/writing/building-up-romances.htm

http://springhole.net/writing/write-healthy-relationships.htm

http://springhole.net/writing/couple-questions.htm

http://springhole.net/writing/believable-functional-and-healthy-relationships.htm
http://springhole.net/writing/believable-and-healthy-friendships-and-romances.htm (these two are specifically geared towards canon/OC relationships)

http://springhole.net/writing/romantic-chemistry.htm

http://springhole.net/writing/avoid-shallow-love-interests-and-shallow-best-friends.htm

I hope these help you in your writing! This site is honestly a writing resource goldmine for tips and advice.

Thank you! Bookmarking those links :)

I find I generally have a backstory for my OCs, but I should definitely flesh this OC out a bit more. Because it almost feels like she's obsessive...the sole point if her motivations was to be with the MC (she had been pining for him for a very long time), but as the story goes on, I hope to make her realize who she us, and not define her by what the MC means to her...

One of the best tips I've seen for avoiding Mary Sues/Stus has to do with how their flaws are worked into the story.

For one thing, their flaws should have a lot of depth. If they have a temper, it should be the kind of temper that leads them to destroy years of work in one screaming fit, or else the kind that burns cold and gives them grudges that last for decades. They can't just get mad sometimes.

If their flaw is that they're too sensitive, it isn't enough to have them be nice to someone who ultimately betrays them. Their compassion has to make the OC do something actually wrong. Like maybe your OC's compassion for others leads them to be unfaithful, or it leads them to betray someone.

Flaws have to cause problems and setbacks for the protagonist, otherwise they aren't flaws.

(And the same is true for positive traits, of course.)

Edited 2018-01-23 04:54 (UTC)

Thanks!

I will definitely work in and flesh out her flaws, one of which is her obsessive/persistent tendencies. She has been slow burning for the MC (who doesn't even know she exists) for a long time, and as a result it will lead to some reckless behaviour on her part, which has her breaking her generally calm, collected, logical, and unaffected exterior. Still waters run deep, as it were...

No problem. This is something I'm struggling with, because my OC is a few hundred years old and a former psuedo-MC in a canon where literal demi-gods stroll around. And there's a lot of deliberate parallels between him and a majorly BAMF-y historical figure in the setting. I know he's a well-rounded character who doesn't outshine established canon, but presenting that to a reader is hard.

There's a lot you could do with that scenario.

If she's obsessive/persistent, you could have her know info about the MC that the MC doesn't like people knowing, for example. Or maybe she knows a *lot* about the MC while they know hardly anything about her, which could be creepy or off-putting at times. Like meeting a stalker. It's also a good recipe for conflict between them, particularly if your OC assumes things based on her obsession. (ex; she knows the MC owns a cat, so she thinks the MC is a cat person. But the MC hates cats.)

Thank you for the suggestions, I think I'm going to go with the sort of stalkerish angle and assumptions, because at a certain point she'll realize that she has been chasing after something she thought she knew, and the real thing isn't quite up to par. I don't know. We'll see. The MC does initially call her bluff (he's imprisoned and she's sort of his lawyer) claiming her belief in his inocennce on a teenage infatuation (she was in school with his younger brother, and she took a class or two with the MC, he assumes).

Your suggestions were great. Good luck with your OC! Will you have flashbacks/mentions or have the OC's actions allude to particular canon moments where the formerly PSEUDO MC / OC was be8ng a boss?

Yeah, there's definitely a lot you could do with that scenario, haha. There's a lot of fun to be had when you're breaking a pedestal. I assume this is ultimately going to be an OC/CC romance? How is she going to deal with her assumptions being wrong?

Thanks!

I'm actually doing a triple-timeline thing, where each timeline feeds the next. The earliest timeline is the OC during their pseudo-MC BAMFy canon days. He's betrayed by his allies, saves the day anyway, and then is betrayed by the Empire he was fighting for. The middle timeline is the OC and CC during a war, which ends in a hollow victory with their Emperor betraying them. Then the "main timeline" of the present day is going to be focused around a lot of socio-political drama type stuff with a side of OC/CC romance. So, WAY TOO COMPLICATED! WHY AM I DOING THIS TO MYSELF?! *flails*

WOW. You should just make this a book and try to sell it, hahaha, super intricate plot! But I always respect authors who write complicated plots like this and make it work -- they're clearly invested in the story and it's clear it's something they're enjoying as well, so bravo and good luck to you. (Do you usually write the whole thing out or post as you write? Good luck to your beta as well, if you're using one)

Ultimately, yes, OC/MC romance /was/ the goal, but as the story has progressed in my mind, MC2 (who is recently married and just had a child? icr) pops up, messes with the OC because if she is going to free MC1, she will have to blow the lid on a cover up committed by the previous administration (MC2 has deep pockets and had his hand in the cover up). He is also prejudiced against her, so I'm going to play around with the taboo of wanting something you should hate (this will also apply to the OC's gradual feelings for MC2). I'm aware this sounds like a telenovela, but it's not, haha! The OC will be overwhelmed, as she feels disgusted with herself for doing what she has done with MC2, especially since at that point she is getting closer to MC1, but he has no knowledge of her obsession, which also makes her feel kind of wrong, but not wrong enough to stop...there will be a moment when she realizes MC1 is not exactly who she wants, she tries to force herself on him? ( this might be too far, I might not do that) and she can't believe what she has become, so she runs to MC2 (or he finds her) and further corruption ensues....? I haven't thought this far out yet, I just see in my head the OC getting angry with MC1, pushing him against the wall and considering kissing him, but thinking better of it, as if he disgusts her. But he'll be upset with her once he realizes what she's been doing with MC2 ("you're sleeping with the enemy, OC!" MC1 is BIG on loyalty), even though she points out that she and MC1 are not together, and that she is gathering information to save him. Healthy relationships do not abound, and I will tag as such. Along with the dark! tag, haha.

Ultimately, I have no idea who the OC will end up with, likely alone, because I can't really write romance well, but we shall see!

There's no way it would work as a standalone, unfortunately. It's all just way too dependent on the existing canon's groundwork. And the canon I'm pulling from would be some kind of epic-length fantasy saga like LotR or ASOIAF if you tried to put it in book form.

I've only ever posted a couple of fics (though I have a lot of drawer fic). The last time I worked on something big I posted it chapter by chapter, but it didn't pan out and I never finished it and I still feel guilty fifteen years later about abandoning the damn thing. So this time I'm writing the whole thing out, or at least get enough done that whatever I post could act as a standalone piece.

Haha, sounds more like West Wing or some other sort of govt drama type thing to me! But there's nothing wrong with telenovelas, there's a reason every culture on the planet makes soap operas! They're entertaining!

Make sure you write at least an outline for those scenes you're picturing. I've dreamed up and forgotten so many great scenes and plot twists for my fic, all bc I was like "I'll definitely remember this later!"

Hey there's no need to decide how it ends yet! I'm a planner, but I know a lot of writers just let things develop organically. Your characters might end up surprising you. :D

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