fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4065 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4065 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Grace and Frankie]

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03.

[Gillian Anderson]

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04.

[Actress Martha Higareda as Kristin Ortega in Altered Carbon]

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05.

[Supernatural S01E09, "Home"]

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06.

[FX's Legion]

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07.

[Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey]

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08. https://i.imgur.com/846oK7X.png
[The Shape of Water; linked at OPs request, it's a dildo]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 34 secrets from Secret Submission Post #582.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

And this is basically genetic, or at least biological?

I see the cut of your gib.

Yes, yes, saying that we've been bred to be sexist is also, itself, sexist in a way -- except insofar as I don't see women as being inferior to men, and I want us to be equal to them. But the reason I'm so angry is that I've found that a large barrier to this is my fellow women, who when push comes to shove, will support male supremacy over equality.

but... but...

if you think that women are genetically consigned to be docile, how do you change that and make men and women equal? How do you actually attain that goal? What does the goal of equality even mean, at that point?

If you think that the barrier to equality is something inherent to women, that seems like a pretty fundamental problem with feminism

This is a central problem with humans. We're all capable of self-awareness and of overriding impulses and heuristics, but it's often very hard to do. That's why propaganda is so effective, and why manipulators and abusers follow predictable patterns: they prey upon biases and distortions that are common to all of us.

I think the solution would be in part to more effectively teach self-awareness and critical thinking. The former is particularly important, because we don't really tackle it. We don't tell kids that they're more likely to respond to emotional arguments than to logical ones, or that they're likely to seek out information that reinforces what they already believe, or that their first impulse upon uncovering information that proves them wrong will be to deny it. We should teach all of those things, not just so that this issue can be tackled, but so every issue that currently faces us can be. We have a legion of people getting suckered into alt-right propaganda, and the fact that it's bullshit is no deterrent, because these are people who have never been told that they are more likely to respond to emotionally comforting arguments than to logically sound ones.

The other part would be to teach women, from childhood, that they have the strength and intelligence to reject men, and that in cases when this knowledge conflicts with impulse, they should obey knowledge over impulse.

See, the funny thing is, I pretty much agree with all of this. It's very reasonable! But there's just a few things about how it relates to the other stuff you're saying that confuses me.

For one thing, a lot of this problem is caused by cultural factors - as you yourself point out. And it's really hard to tease out how much of the problem is caused by cultural factors, and how much of it is biological in nature - so, like, when people have their emotional responses, how much of that is basically culturally ingrained, and how much of it is the result of women being bred for docility? It's hard to tell; I'd personally be very hesitant about assigning it to a genetic difference between the sexes, but maybe you disagree. But, either way, I guess my point is that you don't need to talk about genetics and heredity to account for the kind of emotional reactions and background assumptions that you're talking about here.

And then when it comes to solving the problem, it's a solution that we're talking about in cultural terms. The problem is a lack of critical training, and the solution is to teach more critical thinking, skepticism, self-worth, knowledge, etc. None of that has to do with the genetic or biological stuff. It's purely about how we teach people to think and behave. So when we're talking about the immediate social problem, and what practical attitude we should take towards the problem, even more of it is cultural.

So I guess my point is that none of this really demands to be framed as biological. And including a biological component is, one, I disagree with it. And two, it's hugely inflammatory and pisses people off for obvious reasons. So I mean, I guess, why even bring it up at all in the first place if what you really care about is the critical-thinking rationality piece, and talking about heredity, and claim that women are genetically docile? Unless you feel like you really need to mention it intellectually for some reason? It's just weird and I disagree with it.

I see what you're saying.

Part of the reason I think it is important to take biological factors into account is because this is a pattern that repeats itself across times and cultures, because we know that sexual dimorphism often produces antagonistic traits, and because we know that hormones are sexed. There are very clearly things going on that aren't cultural, and we can't tackle them properly without acknowledging them.

It's like how you can't properly guard yourself against manipulation unless you come to grips with the fact that you can, in fact, be manipulated.

As I said, the remarkable thing about humans is that we are able to become aware of these things (and we're able to form the cultural constructs that you allude to). I think my mistake was in failing to note that that's also part of our biology, and it's a part that we fail to utilize, most likely because it takes more of an active effort.

[ SECRET POST #4065 ]

Re: Women have been bred to serve me. Ergo, most women will side with men against women

Re: Women have been bred to serve me. Ergo, most women will side with men against women

Re: Women have been bred to serve me. Ergo, most women will side with men against women

Re: Women have been bred to serve me. Ergo, most women will side with men against women

Re: Women have been bred to serve me. Ergo, most women will side with men against women

Re: Women have been bred to serve me. Ergo, most women will side with men against women