fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4214 ]

[ SECRET POST #4214 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4214 ⌋

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Legal: almost all immigration. I'm firmly for open borders except for some criminal restrictions (though not nearly as many as we have). Being a prostitute/selling your own body. Marijuana.

Illegal: Hiring a prostitute or pimping one/selling someone else's body. Cigarettes, at least in any place where other people might be. Buying votes. Buying politicians (aka donating millions/billions to get them to do what you want, there needs to be limits on that).

Regarding open borders: do you believe that the social welfare system in your country could handle unlimited immigration? There's no way that ours could handle open borders without collapsing or bankrupting the whole state.

This. Who is going to pay to support all of these people until they find a job? What if they can't find a job? There are already enough places in the US where there aren't enough jobs for our own citizens. The last thing we need to be doing is letting tons more people in.

Uh, there are a crap ton of jobs that are currently unfilled because they were previously filled by immigrants. And, honestly, no country has enough jobs for everyone anyway. Open borders allows for more movement and would actually bolster the economy and allow people to more freely move around for work.

I'm not sure I agree. I wouldn't say I necessarily support open borders, but I do support much looser immigration laws.

First - from an economic point of view, this idea of "our own citizens" and "not our own citizens" doesn't actually matter that much? The economic effects of an influx of immigrants are not (on the whole) going to be dramatically different from an increase in population by some other means. So then the question is: is this increase in population an economic negative, or a positive? This is obviously a really complicated question, so I'm not going to say that I definitively have the answer (although AFAIK most economists generally see immigration as economically beneficial). And it's definitely possible that increasing the size of the labor force would be a net negative for workers.

On the other hand, there are a few reasons to think it might not be so bad. The labor market is complex and dynamic. It's not necessarily the case that the number of jobs is just static & any immigrant is just taking a job that would otherwise go to a citizen. For instance, it might be the case that immigrants fill existing job openings that aren't well-suited to citizens. It might (would probably) be the case that an increase in population would lead to an increase in economic demand and job growth. There are tons of things that affect job growth that aren't connected to immigration at all - things like labor rights, for instance. And an increase in population could have positive economic effects on things like productivity that could further counterbalance any negative effect on jobs. So those are all some reasons why immigration wouldn't necessarily have a devastating impact on the economy. It would make some people feel like they lost their jobs because of immigrants. But that's not the same thing at all.

IMO, immigration is an economic net neutral (at worst). And we have a moral and political obligation to accept refugees from other countries. The economic problems that exist aren't really the fault of immigrants. They are the results of economic policies and choices that we've made. Immigrants aren't the ones harming the American social safety net. The people harming the American social safety net are the people who are slashing it to pieces so they can cut taxes. Immigration isn't responsible for dismantling workers' rights. The bosses are the ones responsible for that. Immigrants aren't the ones sucking up all the wealth. The banks and private equity firms and finance companies are the ones doing that. Don't confuse those things.

AMAZING comment. Saving this. Thank you anon!

Every last word of this. Well said. Thank. You.

Totally agree with this. No one wants to hire Americans and pay them what they're worth when they can hire an immigrant that will work for less and take tons of abuse too.

The social welfare system in the United States?

Not the crappy one we have now. But we should also have a much better one. Honestly I'm pretty much a socialist, though in a democratic sense. I think everyone who is part of society should be contributing to it, and especially big companies that make billions taking advantage of people and then get away with not paying any taxes.

And regardless, most of the people currently fleeing their countries should be considered refugees under the treaty that all of our countries ratified. Sending people back to die is immoral and should be illegal.

Open borders is an objectively terrible idea, though.

I don't agree with it but it's not objectively terrible either

Nope. Well, entirely open borders, yes. Their should be security restrictions. But the general policy should be welcoming, not keeping people out.

And honestly, less people stayed here when we did have mostly open borders. People would come to work and then leave. I think that if we had more open borders, it would only be the people who need to leave their home countries for safety who would end up staying here permanently, and we should be allowing them to stay regardless of whether we have open borders or not.

I'm not sure legalized prostitution would be feasible in a world where hiring a prostitute was illegal. It's better than the current "charge the prostitute, let the john off with a warning" trend in places where prostitution is criminalized, but it's still essentially preventing people from selling sex in a safe, regulated environment.

Am I reading this right? You're saying it should be legal to be a prostitute but illegal to hire a prostitute.

I don't understand your logic here.

Actually, this has been tried in some countries, and it actually lowers the rate of trafficking better than making everything legal. The problem with making it legal is that although in theory it allows for regulation, in practice the illegal/immoral parts of the industry still happen when the johns aren't prosecuted, and women are still forced/coerced into it and/or taken advantage of/abused when pimps aren't prosecuted.

NAYRT but

Why on earth should it actually be illegal for someone to go to a prostitute? What is actually wrong with that?

Yeah, but...

Women are allowed to sell their bodies. They're theirs. Okay.

But if you give a consenting prostitute money to have sex with her, that's a crime. Yeah, let's go after traffickers and pimps and people who solicit trafficked people while leaving sex workers alone, no argument there. But making prostitution legal and criminalizing actually giving money to one in exchange for services is just cruel and pointless. They'll still have to operate illegally and I don't see how this would really solve anything, except changing who the law goes after.

Perhaps they're differentiating between hiring and patronizing?

That's all I can figure.

Legal: Being a prostitute

Illegal: Hiring a prostitute

*scratches head*

If I want to hire a good looking male or female prostitute for a night it isn't your business and it isn't hurting you.

Yes, I agree. But there is a ton of abuse and exploitation among johns, and it is just as bad or worse in countries that have altogether legalized prostitution.

But the potential for abuse exists - and actual abuse happens - in a plethora of different industries across the country. We don't try to outlaw those industries to solve it, because there's nothing wrong with the activity itself. And the same standard should apply here. Make laws to remedy the abuse and to protect the abused. Don't ban the industry outright (which is what criminalizing johns would do) - even if you're not imprisoning the sex workers, you're still hurting them.

I absolutely disagree with your stance here.

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[ SECRET POST #4214 ]

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