[ SECRET POST #4236 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4236 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 08 secrets from Secret Submission Post #606.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[nightscale]

I think this is yet another instance where the supplemental materiel(in this case the books and the CE snippets) makes the situation far more nuanced on the Horde's side.

As in Saurfang and the other Horde leaders do protest to Sylvanas's plans or are kept in the dark about certain things she's going to do.

But the game is absolute shite at actually showing this so all the other Horde faction leaders come off as completely okay with her actions when really they shouldn't be at all down with torching a city of civilians.

In the Battle for Lordaeron scenario(in the Horde-version) they at least either object to some of her actions or have absolutely no idea what she's about to do, so there is that.

Sylvanas herself however is anything but 'morally grey', she's an outright villain(the forsaken have always toed the line between neutral and neutral-evil tbh) and has been that way for a while. I love her and she's one of my favourite lore-characters, but there's no way her actions in the past 13 years of WoW are any shade of grey.

I do hope the other Horde leaders actually get to challenge her properly though, because atm it's all 'we don't like this!' but then they just... do it anyway. Idk, we'll see how this all plays out.

[cbrachyrhynchos]

It sounds like Sylvanas has replaced Garosh as the designated puppy-kicker of the game. I think I gave up during peak Garosh. Even then, the trajectory of Horde leaders kicking puppies in spite of powerless dissent and whole factions written off except for optional quest paths was painfully obvious.

[nightscale]

Sylvanas has always done shady shit on her own turf, but because she's the Warchief atm it means that all that shit is now in the open. And it's one thing when the other Horde leaders literally don't know what she's doing(because she keeps it that way) so the game can gloss over their reactions/dissent because hey they don't know shit. But when she's doing all this and they still don't go against her other than maybe one line going 'this is wrong!' their protests look... well half-hearted tbh.

But I mainly just blame this on Blizzard C- story-telling honestly, the game itself was never the best at it, bar one or two stellar quest-lines. I roll with the punches these days because I still love the game but yeah, I can understand Horde players annoyance with Blizzard playing Warchief roulette and them basically getting no say in horrible things their bad Warcheif's do.

I think with Garrosh at least it was very clear that the rest of the Horde was against him, but with Sylvanas despite her doing arguably worse shit, the players are rail-roaded into it and the other faction leaders aren't doing much(but then do they ever?).

And then ofc you have the Horde players who revel in it and don't care so, it's not like everyone is unhappy. xD

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Yeah, everyone hated Garrosh but those objections were treated as pretty much irrelevant to word events and impotent up to the point where they finally got rid of him. There were other reasons why I just stopped doing multiplayer but fed up with Blizzard plot development was a factor.

[nightscale]

Ah yeah, I'll concede that point. Blizzard has always had an issue of any butting-of-heads actually amounting to much in-game outside of raids.

Tbh it's one of the more hilarious aspects of doing older content and you're following the orders of 'Warchief Garrosh' when it's Sylvanas in charge in the current timeline. xD

It's very, very messy tbh so I don't blame people if that puts them off or drives them away over time. You take what you can out of a story and if it stops working for you then leaving is fair.

On a side topic

[feotakahari]

I don’t play this game, but my fandom experience overlaps with some people who really identify with the Forsaken. (Apparently, the idea that the Forsaken modify their bodies with parts from other bodies is catnip for trans fans.) It’s kind of jarring to suddenly see all these takes like “well, the Forsaken were always pretty evil.” Maybe it’s like the difference between how J.K. Rowling writes Slytherin and how pretty much everyone else writes Slytherin.

Re: On a side topic

[nightscale]

I'll grant I was sweeping all Forsaken with a large brush there, not all of them would be evil because honestly that's a hard call to make for an entire race and DnD alignments should be taken as guidelines more than hard and fast rules.

(Though if I'm being honest Draenei and Forsaken are the two factions that you can broad strokes a bit more on the whole, maybe Blood Elves as well. Every other race is pretty much 'well it's down to the individual')

But.

The Forsaken as a faction slaughter, capture, torture and experiment upon living beings(but especially humans) at the behest of their Queen(Sylvanas) or just for funsies. They do have a pretty awful existence, what with being forcibly raised into undeath so I don't lack any sympathy for them. But they go around killing innocent civilians just because they're alive(one of their most common in-game phrases is 'Death to the Living') and in their home city they have a lab-section that very openly has living people being experimented upon or being fed to giant spiders(I do however think that from a lore-perspective these parts of the city are actually tucked away and hard to get into, but in-game you can just run on in there and see living people being tortured alive).

Not all of them are like this ofc, and there are Forsaken in the game who are not down with Sylvanas's more Evil shit. But overall their quest-lines and stories are... well pretty evil on the whole. There's a whole lotta murder going on(and then raising said murdered as Forsaken to bolster the factions numbers).

I can see how trans people would identify with the body-modification aspect, and I'm not casting sweeping judgements on anyone that likes them or finds them relatable, and honestly when it comes to making OC's the sandbox is your playground. You don't have to fit to the mold the game sets-out if you don't want, and there are nicer Forsaken out there to take from(as well as some more sympathetic quest-lines iirc).

And they do have a cool aesthetic so I do get why people like them, even if they aren't to my taste(as I like neither undead nor spiders, but their faction crest is fantastic tho).

But overall their factions is... definitely a darker shade of grey than most others in this game.

(And I got very rambly on you there, I apologise).

Edit: because it will bug me if I don't put this in and I want to be fair.

Pre-Cata(an expansion) the Forsaken definitely had a lot more 'we're trying to exist in a world where we don't fit and no one wants us' going on and there were more sympathetic quest-lines for them, but that was also still coupled with 'oh look a village of civilians, go kill them all and take their heads' types quests as well so they defiantly still had a lot of grey in their stories.

Post-Cata the game has kind of just dialed up the grey more and they skirt a lot heavier towards evil than the more 'some are good, some are bad' approach that most of the other races get.

They're an interesting race though for sure.

Re: On a side topic

[(Anonymous)]

Up until very, very recently, humans were an exsitential threat to the Forsaken. They were being hunted down by their own family and friends, not for anything bad they did, but simply for who they were. They killed an tortured humans, because humans didn't think twice about killing and torturing them. In the "Elegy" short story the Night Elves make a speech about how their culture abhors the turture of prisoners of war, but that undead were an exception, because they're undead. This sort of attitude was present from the beginning.

Re: On a side topic

[(Anonymous)]

no, the forsaken are definitely evil and always have been. tragic, yes. with exceptions of people just trying to live their un-lives, yes. but it is absolutely not a big deal for them to mind control or torture. they are fucked up and most of them like it.

Re: On a side topic

[silverr]

the Fans of Lilian Voss would like a word or two with you.